A virgin list! Lee Etherington Nov 5, 2000
Hello There!
well, i'm not sure what i'm getting myself into starting an Ozzie
Canyoning discussion group... I am all to familiar with the very
diverse and passionate discussions and opinions that crop up amongst
Canyoners in the bush and wherever we may meet... This is the first
post to the list and just like a new pair of Volleys i thought it
should be broken in, just how do you 'devirginise' an e-group, i know
that with Volleys it is ritual for every member of the Canyoning
party to jump on your white, shiny shoes at the departure point (or
at least make a smart, defamatory remark about them!). They then must
be tramped through the depths of a Canyon and back out again before
they are accepted into the group as a normal member of the Canyoning
community.
Amongst Volleys, as in Byron Bay, the older, daggier, dirtier and
more bits you have hanging off you, the more respected you are
amongst your peers, until one day you finally fall completely to
pieces after a hard life of usually 25 or so Canyons and 600-1500 k's
of walking, swimming, abseiling, jumping, bouncing around in the back
of old cars and hanging off the washing line You are discarded into
the wheelie bin. unceremoniously, discarded. To be replaced, often
before your time by a new, bright & shiny pair of Classic Volleys
from Dunlop...
Ah the life of a Volley!
Better get back to work!
Lee
www.naturetours.com.au
Just in time Poco Loco Adventures Nov 7, 2000
Hi there,
 
Thanks for inviting me in this group. I am a member of the ACA e-group but live and work (as a canyoning guide) in Europe.
This invitation came right in time because you guys might be able to help me out.
 
One of our guides works part time for us, part time for humanitarian aid organisations. For the moment he's doing a 6-month stint in Indonesia in a refugee camp. Because his mind is never far from canyoning, he has asked me to look on the web for information about canyoning in that region.
I figure that you might have some information regarding canyons in the Indonesia/Java region ? Everything helps.
 
Thanks in advance,
 
Koen
RE: [OzCanyons] Just in time Lee Etherington Nov 7, 2000

G’day Coen,

Sorry mate, I don’t know about the canyons in that area. I do know that there are some spectacular ones in Thailand but I haven’t been to them myself.

Will ask around as I talk to other Canyoners here and pass any relevant info on to you.

Regards,

 

Lee

Birrabang, Dalpura, hole in the wall Lee Etherington Nov 7, 2000
Just been through above canyons in the last week. Removed some
plastic dinosaurs from Dalpura including a tyranosaurus, terradactyl
and triceritops! Someone must have thought they would be funny to
leave in the canyon... The wildflowers are spectacular at this time
of year, even found a bearded orchid. Waratahs are also excellent.
Waratah ridge near hole in the wall was awesome, a sea of waratahs.
the new gate on hole in the wall adds about an hours walk to the trip
(4 k's) and would make most of the further out canyons along this
ridge such as luna park less attractive as a day trip. All the female
yabbies are 'berried' full of eggs, great to see.
lee
New Member David Stuckey Nov 8, 2000
Beautie! Someone decided to start an exclusive Canyons discussion group.
Good one Lee!

One thing to clear up immediately, I'm not the David Stuckey that owns and
operates "Blue Mountains Canyon Tours", however, he is a good friend of mine
and I have worked for him in the past. It's a little strange having someone
else with exactly the same name with the same passion for canyons, but there
are 2 David Noble's too!

My speciality is 3 Dimensional Photography in Canyons, caves and most
outdoor adventure sports in the Blue Mountains.

I look forward to an interesting forum on OzCanyons.

Regards

David Stuckey.
Welcome to a new member Jay Chisolm Nov 8, 2000
I'd like to welcome a new member to this group,
Me.
John Chisholm,
Snr Rocksports Instructor
Royal Rangers Australia
http://www.come.to/Royal_Rangers.

I've been canyoning for more than ten years and live in the foothills
of the blue Mts. Well, that's enough on me.

Thanks for getting this group off the ground Lee. I hope it goes well.

If I can fire off a question, I'm organising some training for leaders
taking kids into canyons.

What (in your opinion) are the 100% compulsory things I should be
teaching them?

Looking forward to your opinions,
John
Mandatory Skills for Instructors David Stuckey Nov 9, 2000
Reply to John Chisholm,

By no means intended as a complete list, but lets get one started.....

Knots.
First Aid for hypothermia, breaks and minor injuries.
Basic map reading & navigation.
Interaction skills and team building.

anyone want to add to this??

Regards

David Stuckey
RE: [OzCanyons] Mandatory Skills for Instructors Lee Etherington Nov 9, 2000
G'day John,
Thanks for joining, sounds like an interesting project that you are working
on. As a personal opinion I think the technical skills associated with
abseiling and rigging a canyon & difficult abseils are mandatory. What is
specifically taught depends on the grade & specific canyon/s that you will
be visiting. Of course the use of full safety equipment including helmets &
gloves should be taught & demonstrated, also specifics such as group
management/strong briefings (kids like to race around) and special attention
should be paid to hypothermia management as kids are particularly
susceptible, especially if there is a delay enroute.
Minimal impact technique & natural history should be major components of
what is provided to the kids, to inspire them and encourage respect for our
wild places. All leaders should be familiar with the area, canyon (incl
early exits), local weather & recent weather happenings, map & navigation.
And so the list goes on... Any other opinions? Organised & or commercial
guiding is a very technical field...
Regards,
Lee
Re: [OzCanyons] Mandatory Skills for Instructors leonard metcalf Nov 10, 2000
Dear John,

Skills for Canyoning guides:

Teaching skills (presentation and skill development)
Leadership
Communication
Group Management
Basic Counseling and facilitation skills
Wilderness/remote first aid
Vertical Rescue
Vertical rigging (abseiling, prusiking, climbing)
Search and rescue
Weather interpretation
Environmental ethics and interpretation (including minimal impact)
Indigenous knowledge
Map reading, navigation skills
Detailed understanding of current safe practices
Legal and duty of care knowledge
Occupational Health and Safety
etc... the list goes on..

I suggest you look at the following documents:

National Outdoor Recreation Training Package, which has detailed
competencies for guiding canyoning.... (Competencies number: SRO CYG 001A,
SRO CYG 002A & SRO CYG 003A....) Published by Sport and Recreation Training
Australia Limited... PO Box 422 North Sydney 2059... ph 02 9923 4359

and the latest safety practices manual...there is a NSW version 2nd Edition
that has only just recently been published by Tonya Grey (from Universtiy of
Wollongong) (I am not sure of its title... though I will forward it when I
get the name... and publishers) The 1st edition was published by TOP (The
Outdoor Professionals)... this has all the local requirements, and the
standard practices as agreed by the major professional players in NSW...

Nationally accredited courses based on these competencies will be avaliable
next year I believe...

It appears that the trend is towards Nationally Accredited Training
Packages, that would be VETAB accredited... ie only Registered Training
Organisations would be able to run such courses... (RTO's)... I can
envision that in the near future NPWS would only allow accredited Guides to
run comercial trips into the canyons... and this would soon extend to other
volentary guides... as it is NPWS has strict guidelines as to who, how many,
what qualifications / experience guides must have and when groups can go
into canyons... under the curent licensing system... For the Blue Mountains
I sugest you contact the Blackheath Office...

There are courses around that are accredited... TAFE in Katoomba curently
runs one... and other private providers are developing them now...

SO... you don't need to go and rewrite everything, as it is all curently
availiable... and in the long run, certification is definatly on the way
in.... and I can only recommend that you go down that path too... in the
interests of professionalism, safety, and environmentalism....

Leonard Metcalf
Director
Komung Pty Ltd
Missing party at Mt Tomah madmaidens@optusnet.com.au Nov 14, 2000
I have heard (2nd hand) that there was a search for missing
bushwalkers around Mt Tomah over the weekend of 12th Nov 2000. Can
anyone confirm this or has any info pls let us know. It sounds like
someone may have got into difficulty at Claustral.
Re: Mandatory Skills for Instructors John Chisholm Nov 15, 2000
Thanks for the replies.

I know about the competencies but I was just trying to get a more
general idea of what people think is needed.

I have seen training packages that involve long periods of theory on
topic such as rope construction etc.
I tend to think that this type of information sinks in better once you
have used the rope and realise what it has to do.

For example I have had a good look at the Scouts stuff
(Caving/abseiling rather than canyoning) and I find that there is a
huge amount of information delivered lecture style.
Am I out of date with current thinking if I say I prefer a more
practical approach?
For example, if I am teaching someone about group management (very
important with people leading kids) I like to show people where I
would situate the group while I rig. I think that this has more impact
than lectures.

This is not to say I avoid lectures, but I do think (given the time
constraints most leaders have) that practical experience is of more
benefit and that having experience makes it easier to learn the more
theoretical.

How does that sound to people?
Feel free to disillusion me.

And thanks again for the comments so far
John Chisholm
New Books coming soon Lee Etherington Nov 19, 2000
G'day,
just a quick note to let you know of a couple of new publications
coming out soon. The Canyons near sydney guide is about to go into
print in its 4th edition, a few new canyons and some updates,
particularly in the ethics section e.g. the canyoners code which i
have been trying to get the time to post to the list. And a few new
pics, probably from my collection.
Also there is a new book coming out by Richard Fischer on Australian
Canyons. Richard is an american international canyoner. He flys
around the world photographing and documenting canyons and has had
several expeditions to Oz over the last 2 years. 3 of them have been
to the Blue Mountains region where he spent time with Rick Jamieson,
Peter Jamisons and I in a few varied canyons including nth bowens
creek, dione dell, surefire, heartattack, birrabang, weeny gap & the
Kowmung gorge (both not really canyons by our definition but very
much so by the american definition). The new book looks at five
different areas that are Blue Mountains, Karijini, Bungle Bungles,
Kimberly's & Central Australia. Some excellent pics and some
excellent expeditions, many of the outback ones by helicopter!
I will probably be able to supply the book in a few weeks, it is not
yet released.
Anyone out on the weekend?
There were a HEAP of cars at the Dalpura departure point, a few
horrific accidents along the bells line of road in the last 4 days,
one of my friends was first at the scene of a fatality... Remember to
drive carefully!
Regards,
Lee
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What have I just done? webguy@diveoz.com.au Nov 26, 2000
Hmmmm, just did a canyon out near Rocky Creek etc, creek starts at
478147 and the canyon enters Rocky Creek at 486135. Turn Left and
from there it's about 500 mtrs downstream to the Rocky Creek exit.
Anyone know what it was called? Very very scrubby at the top of the
creek with about 500mtrs of very dense ferns etc.

Also, found the "Canyons Near Sydney" guide book someone left in the
canyon, looks like it had been there for a while, quite wet and stuck
together etc.

hey, it was an ok canyon a few abseils of no higher than say 15 - 20
mtrs, a few very short dark sections if you felt like going out of
your way and down a few holes etc.

A good day out, first time to the area, going to do Breakfast
Canyon next time, that sounds ok as well. Anyone else done that
one?
Re: [OzCanyons] What have I just done? Owen Zuber Nov 26, 2000
At a guess probably Sheep dip.
----- Original Message -----
From: < webguy@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 26 November 2000 22:46
Subject: [OzCanyons] What have I just done?


> Hmmmm, just did a canyon out near Rocky Creek etc, creek starts at
> 478147 and the canyon enters Rocky Creek at 486135. Turn Left and
> from there it's about 500 mtrs downstream to the Rocky Creek exit.
> Anyone know what it was called? Very very scrubby at the top of the
> creek with about 500mtrs of very dense ferns etc.
>
> Also, found the "Canyons Near Sydney" guide book someone left in the
> canyon, looks like it had been there for a while, quite wet and stuck
> together etc.
>
> hey, it was an ok canyon a few abseils of no higher than say 15 - 20
> mtrs, a few very short dark sections if you felt like going out of
> your way and down a few holes etc.
>
> A good day out, first time to the area, going to do Breakfast
> Canyon next time, that sounds ok as well. Anyone else done that
> one?
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] What have I just done? WebGuy from Dive-Oz Web Services Nov 26, 2000
At 10:55 PM 26/11/2000 +1100, you wrote:
At a guess probably Sheep dip.

Nope, Sheepdip starts at 474130, thats about 2 k's away as the crow flies.

But thanks for the suggestion...

Cheers

Neil

----- Original Message -----
From: <webguy@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 26 November 2000 22:46
Subject: [OzCanyons] What have I just done?


> Hmmmm, just did a canyon out near Rocky Creek etc, creek starts at
> 478147 and the canyon enters Rocky Creek at 486135. Turn Left and
> from there it's about 500 mtrs downstream to the Rocky Creek exit.
> Anyone know what it was called? Very very scrubby at the top of the
> creek with about 500mtrs of very dense ferns etc.
>
> Also, found the "Canyons Near Sydney" guide book someone left in the
> canyon, looks like it had been there for a while, quite wet and stuck
> together etc.
>
> hey, it was an ok canyon a few abseils of no higher than say 15 - 20
> mtrs, a few very short dark sections if you felt like going out of
> your way and down a few holes etc.
>
> A good day out, first time to the area, going to do Breakfast
> Canyon next time, that sounds ok as well. Anyone else done that
> one?
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>


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Re: [OzCanyons] What have I just done? David Noble Nov 26, 2000
Owen Zuber wrote:
>
> At a guess probably Sheep dip.

No - Sheep Dip is 3-4 kms away.

Coachwood Canyon is a better bet.

Dave

--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: [OzCanyons] What have I just done? WebGuy from Dive-Oz Web Services Nov 26, 2000
At 11:04 PM 26/11/2000 +1100, you wrote:
Owen Zuber wrote:
>
> At a guess probably Sheep dip.

No - Sheep Dip is 3-4 kms away.

Coachwood Canyon is a better bet.

David.

Thats the one, however, we entered at a different side creek to what the guidebook says to do Coachwood so it was a bit longer for us. Still, was a great day out!

Cheers

Neil


Dave

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Re: [OzCanyons] What have I just done? David Noble Nov 26, 2000
WebGuy from Dive-Oz Web Services wrote:
>
> At 10:55 PM 26/11/2000 +1100, you wrote:
>
> > At a guess probably Sheep dip.
>
> Nope, Sheepdip starts at 474130, thats about 2 k's away as the crow
> flies.
>

Wrong here too - the canyon at 474130 is "Twister". Sheepdid is another
canyon (the upper constriction in Rocky Creek itself)

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: What have I just done? mondaeo7@hotmail.com Nov 26, 2000
Sounds like you had fun,
I'd say Coachwood too,
It has a very scrubby entry... hope you had long pants on!
i was there a few years back, at lunch a huge tree fell through the
roof of the canyon less than 50 metres away, it made an awesone
noise, sounded like the world was ending.
Regards,
Lee
Fwd: [OzCanyons] Re: What have I just done? WebGuy from Dive-Oz Web Services Nov 27, 2000

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Sender: sentto-2378614-19-975277910-webguy=diveoz.com.au@...

Sounds like you had fun,

It was a great day.

I'd say Coachwood too,
It has a very scrubby entry... hope you had long pants on!

Yup, I wear a loose fitting pair of army pants over my wetsuit to protect it etc,  the marks that are on those have saved the wetsuit some pretty rough treatment etc.

i was there a few years back, at lunch a huge tree fell through the
roof of the canyon less than 50 metres away, it made an awesone
noise, sounded like the world was ending.

At what part did that happen?

I think one of the most impressive areas is where you come to the large dry area where you have to start the scrambling etc it's quite wide but still closed in overhead etc Plenty of big trees in there etc. That's where we found the canyon guide around there.

When we first started the canyon, because we did it on a different entry to the guide book, we thought, hey, not many people have done this, no well worn trail! Then as we got further in, there was the well worn trail, bummer ;-(

Cheers

Neil

Regards,
Lee


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Fwd: [OzCanyons] Re: What have I just done? Lee Etherington Nov 26, 2000
> >I'd say Coachwood too,

> > >i was there a few years back, at lunch a huge tree fell through
the
> >roof of the canyon less than 50 metres away, it made an awesone
> >noise, sounded like the world was ending.
>
> At what part did that happen?
>

That happenned near where Coachwood joins up with Rocky Creek, i
think it was just before the last scramble into Rocky. The tree was
an old hollow eucalypt from above the canyon. It was very windy that
day and there was all sorts of stuff being blown into the canyon. The
dead tree just topped it all off.


> I think one of the most impressive areas is where you come to the
large dry
> area where you have to start the scrambling etc it's quite wide but
still
> closed in overhead etc Plenty of big trees in there etc. That's
where we
> found the canyon guide around there.

Its probably the most popular spot for lunch!

> When we first started the canyon, because we did it on a different
entry to
> the guide book,

I think i know the entry you made, very dense and large tree ferns,
you probably had to crawl through them, they haven't been touched by
bushfire for years. This is one gully too far over from the described
entry point for Coachwood which cuts into the canyon where it is
already partially formed. I went in your way once too, and no, i dont
think many people have been in there!
Have Fun!

> >Lee
Re: Fwd: [OzCanyons] Re: What have I just done? WebGuy from Dive-Oz Web Services Nov 27, 2000
At 02:46 AM 27/11/2000 +0000, you wrote:
> >I'd say Coachwood too,

> > >i was there a few years back, at lunch a huge tree fell through
the
> >roof of the canyon less than 50 metres away, it made an awesone
> >noise, sounded like the world was ending.
>
> At what part did that happen?
>

That happenned near where Coachwood joins up with Rocky Creek, i
think it was just before the last scramble into Rocky. The tree was
an old hollow eucalypt from above the canyon. It was very windy that
day and there was all sorts of stuff being blown into the canyon. The
dead tree just topped it all off.

That would have been pretty freaky, you would not have known what was going on ;-)



> I think one of the most impressive areas is where you come to the
large dry
> area where you have to start the scrambling etc it's quite wide but
still
> closed in overhead etc Plenty of big trees in there etc. That's
where we
> found the canyon guide around there.

Its probably the most popular spot for lunch!

> When we first started the canyon, because we did it on a different
entry to
> the guide book,

I think i know the entry you made, very dense and large tree ferns,
you probably had to crawl through them, they haven't been touched by
bushfire for years. This is one gully too far over from the described
entry point for Coachwood which cuts into the canyon where it is
already partially formed. I went in your way once too, and no, i dont
think many people have been in there!

Yup, hand and knees stuff for ages. Some places you could sort of walk a bit, but very few areas like that. Thankfully no leaches. After my last encounter with leaches, don't want a repeat of that again.

Cheers

Neil

Have Fun!

> >Lee



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Heart Attack Access David Stuckey Nov 26, 2000
Hi Gang!

Just wondering, now that we have a lot of new gates etc, what is the best
way into Heart Attack Canyon?
Where to park? etc? Need the mountain bike??

I haven't done that canyon for ages.

I haven't been up on the Plateau for a while either so I'm not up to date on
the gates either.

Yileen was great last Sunday. Plenty of water.

Regards

David Stuckey
Blue Mountains World Heritage! Lee Etherington Nov 29, 2000
Congratulations to the Greater Blue Mountains National Parks, now
officially on the World Heritage list! declared yesterday in Cairns,
more details & links will be posted as they come to light. I don't
believe this will adversely impact on Canyoning but i do hope that it
will lead to increased funding for the BM's NPWS.
Lee
Track Closures as from May 2000 Lee Etherington Nov 29, 2000
Tracks closed to "restrict public access by vehicle to some parts of
Wollemi & Blue Mountains National Parks" include;
Newnes Plateau:
Deanes Lookout niorth of the Galah Mountain Turnoff
Deanes Diding Track at the start
Breakfast creek Canyon access track
Waratah Ridge (HITW access) moved ~3k's further back
Mt Budgary track

There are also closures on some of the other minor tracks & trails
such as the access track to the hut near the natural bridge on the mt
cameron track.
further rehab of the mt cameron track

Mt Tootie
Bowen Hill firetrail
D'arcy Range firetrail
Re: [OzCanyons] Track Closures as from May 2000 Webguy from www.diveoz.com.au Nov 30, 2000
At 10:40 PM 29/11/2000 +0000, you wrote:
Tracks closed to "restrict public access by vehicle to some parts of
Wollemi & Blue Mountains National Parks" include;
Newnes Plateau:
Deanes Lookout niorth of the Galah Mountain Turnoff
Deanes Diding Track at the start
Breakfast creek Canyon access track
Waratah Ridge (HITW access) moved ~3k's further back
Mt Budgary track

I was out at Breakfast canyon area on the weekend, and they really have laid a lot of trees over the old access road, as well as the wire rope/cable to block the access from the rocky creek access road.

Not just the beginning of the road, the trees were placed every 50 mtrs or so for a good km of road, if not more, from where the breakfast creek access walking track comes onto this road, you could see off into the distance trees still that far in on the road.

More a pain than anything, having to walk around the trees or over them if they are small enough, there are already tracks showing where people have walked around them. ;-)

Cheers

Neil


There are also closures on some of the other minor tracks & trails
such as the access track to the hut near the natural bridge on the mt
cameron track.
further rehab of the mt cameron track

Mt Tootie
Bowen Hill firetrail
D'arcy Range firetrail



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Re: [OzCanyons] Blue Mountains World Heritage! Poco Loco Adventures Nov 30, 2000
I advise you guys to stay alert. I live and work next to the National Park
of the Monte Perdido and Ordesa, in the Spanish Pyrenees - also on the World
Heritage list.
A few years ago the park put a complete ban on canyoning because they
"weren't sure" if swimming and disturbing the canyon's riverbed had any
adverse effects on the environment. They still aren't sure but the ban is
there to stay. . . this in a region where canyoning is of huge importance
economically.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 11:28 PM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Blue Mountains World Heritage!


> Congratulations to the Greater Blue Mountains National Parks, now
> officially on the World Heritage list! declared yesterday in Cairns,
> more details & links will be posted as they come to light. I don't
> believe this will adversely impact on Canyoning but i do hope that it
> will lead to increased funding for the BM's NPWS.
> Lee
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
what a weekend John Chisholm Dec 10, 2000
Is it just me, or was everyone from Sydney all parked at the Rocky
Creek car park?

I was at Dalpura with a group early Sunday morning and we didn't see a
soul (the benefit of living outside the metro area). We thought we'd
continue on to Sheep Dip as we were well ahead of our schedule.
Is it because these are the canyons the commercial groups do? If you
were in one of the groups in the sheep dip crush, you missed out on
some perfect canyoning. Dalpura had clear water, yabbies, skinks and
frogs and the whole area was full of purple orchids and fantastic
heath flowers. We didn't see or hear anyone else during the trip (just
the six of us) although we did see another car when we got pack to the
parking area. For us this was perfect.

When we continued on to sheep dip we followed on behind some large
groups, we tried to space ourselves by having a long lunch in the car
park but by the time we'd finished another group had arrived. While
the kids we were taking through loved the jumpins they didn't get the
same feeling of adventure. Especially not when, despite the long
lunch, we had to join the queue for the last jump.

I guess the moral to the story is, learn to live with it? Or perhaps I
should learn when to say no to a canyon and try the next car park.
That said, the recent rains have made canyoning perfect and if you can
find an empty carpark. Or if you have your own pet canyon which isn't
in the guidebook now is the perfect time to get out there.

John Chisholm
(preaching to the converted?)
Re: [OzCanyons] what a weekend David Noble Dec 11, 2000
John Chisholm wrote:
>
> Is it just me, or was everyone from Sydney all parked at the Rocky
> Creek car park?

You should have gone the weekend before - eg on the Sunday - only two
other cars at the Rocky Creek carpark - and one of them was some guy
handing out survey forms and not actually doing any canyoning.

>
> I was at Dalpura with a group early Sunday morning and we didn't see a
> soul (the benefit of living outside the metro area).

A friend drove past on Sunday and said that there were heaps of cars on
the Bell Rd between Bell and the Mt Wilson turn off. I was a good
weekend to go down a canyon!

We thought we'd
> continue on to Sheep Dip as we were well ahead of our schedule.
> Is it because these are the canyons the commercial groups do?

Perhaps it is time to get some of the names sorted out here. Don't you
mean "Twister Canyon" - the small canyon near the Rocky Creek car park?
"Sheep Dip Canyon" is quite a different canyon - and is part of Rocky
Creek itself rather than a tributary of it as is Twister Canyon. Guide
book authors have been known to make errors.


>
> I guess the moral to the story is, learn to live with it? Or perhaps I
> should learn when to say no to a canyon and try the next car park.
> That said, the recent rains have made canyoning perfect and if you can
> find an empty carpark. Or if you have your own pet canyon which isn't
> in the guidebook now is the perfect time to get out there.

On Sunday - I was in a party doing some canyons near Mt Wilson. In the
morning we headed out to do the bit of canyon in the north branch of
Bowens Creek - near the south branch junction. This time we started from
near Wynnes Rock LO - and were surprised to find lots of cars - and also
the same guy we saw the weekend before giving out survey forms. After a
gap of 15 years or so between visits to this canyon section - I was
surprised to find a track to the canyon start and one from the end out
back to the lookout road. I guess these were cut by commercial groups?
Whilst making the trip quite quick (we were able to fit in two more
canyons in the afternoon) - it felt a shame as we missed out on some
quite long sections of canyon in the creek - both downstream and
upstream of the tracks.

Dave
>
> John Chisholm
> (preaching to the converted?)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com


--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
RE: [OzCanyons] what a weekend Lee Etherington Dec 12, 2000
Ah, the new summer rush!
Rocky Creek is probably the most popular canyon after Claustral, Wollangambe
and these days Empress. Most people now also do twister (sheep dip) as it is
a lot of fun and no extra effort. A note about commercial operators, after
talking with researchers recently who are looking into the recreational
impacts of Canyoning, commercial groups only account for 10-15% of the
Canyoning scene, and that is at the main canyons. There are a lot of
organised groups of people who may be from walking groups, social groups,
family and friends and also the non profit groups like scouts, churches &
youth groups (over 50 ppl in one group I saw). True, commercial operators
are charging money for Canyoning but they also contribute money directly and
indirectly to the npws for the privelege in license fees, per head fees,
company tax and income taxes etc. Other organised groups do not contribute
directly, usually have no operating standard and rarely formal
qualifications to properly guide and deal with difficult situations, causing
more headaches for management and rescue authorities.
I think considering the weather, Rocky Creek was the perfect canyon for a
lot of people who have been stuck inside with all the rain recently, I could
go up there today and find no-one.
Have Fun!
Lee Etherington
Re: what a weekend John Chisholm Dec 12, 2000
Perhaps it is time to get some of the names sorted out here.
Don't you mean "Twister Canyon" - the small canyon near the Rocky
Creek car park?
"Sheep Dip Canyon" is quite a different canyon - and is part of
Rocky Creek itself rather than a tributary of it as is Twister
Canyon. Guide book authors have been known to make errors.

Whoops, I knew that.

- I was surprised to find a track to the canyon start and one
from the end out back to the lookout road. I guess these were
cut by commercial groups? Whilst making the trip quite quick (we
were able to fit in two more canyons in the afternoon) - it felt
a shame as we missed out on some quite long sections of canyon in
the creek - both downstream and upstream of the tracks.

I know what you mean, I've not been doing much canyoning the last
little while (4 years) due to obtaining the status 'family man' and I
have noticed that even in four years there have been a lot of changes
to the tracks in and out of canyons. It has a benefit for me as I
often take kids with me and I can let them lead, they get great
pleasure out of 'discovering' the ways in and out.


John Chisholm
Sport vs Bush canyoning ? Adam Bramwell Dec 12, 2000
Hi all,

From Lee's recent mail, it appears commercial guides feel a need to
justify their occupations, perhaps due to their perception by the
general canyoning community.

There is no getting away from the tendency of humans to vainly compare
themselves with one another. The two different 'species' of canyoners
found in the wilderness exist for different reasons:

The 'recreational canyoning group' makes the pilgrimage up to the
canyons in search of adventure, challenge and escape. The 'commercial
canyoning guide' is accompanied by an entourage of 'bumbly' tourists
and brings them up to the canyon in order to extract money from them.

Really, would the commercial guides still do it if there wasn't a
dollar to be made?

Re: Lee's comments:

The need for skills to 'properly guide' is required only if groups go
canyoning in the 'guide/client' mould.

The mentality of most volunteer groups is that people are
progressively taught skills to look after themselves. They learn how
to belay each other, set up ropes, hook themselves up(!), and move
past being 'passengers' to becoming accountable for themselves. When
you take money from someone on a trip, you become accountable for
their safety, and must have the skills.

There is no doubt that guides possess more technical skills than the
average canyoner. And that the client has a more gourmet lunch
provided for them than the average canyoner. Some of my friends are
guides, and they spend their working hours in a beautiful wilderness
environment. But rarely is there the opportunity for us to canyon
together.

Just remember that humans are still just a part of nature. And in
nature, diversity provides a healthy cross-section of 'species' that
can coexist.

So instead of pointing out each others' weaknesses in an attempt to
boost our own egos, let's take a note from the mailing list's very own
introduction, and be 'productive'.

Re: Dave's comments:

Can any commercial operators illuminate us as to whether any tracks to
canyons have been cut? I'm sure they'd just be worn by use.
Especially if a group of 50 people went through!!

In the short 8 years I have been canyoning, I now see that canyons
could be separated out into 'sport' and 'bush' categories. The
creation of the cut-off gates in Newnes forest is a most excellent
opportunity to choose an isolated 'bush' canyon. Just like you can
now climb at abandoned cliffs like Boyce and Zig Zag because everyone
is into sport climbing!

For people who'd like to know where the distinction lies in canyoning,
it can be approximated by checking out where the commercial groups go
regularly:

ASM: www.ozemail.com.au/~atlwp/canyon.htm
Rocksports: www.rocksports.com.au/discus/messages/92/93.html?976184605
Outland: www.outland.com.au/canyon.htm
High n Wild: www.high-n-wild.com.au/can.htm
Bushsports: www.bushsports.com.au/canyoning.html
RopeWerx: www.hermes.net.au/ropewerx/canyons

Extra info is available on Dave's overview page:

www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/canyonlist2.html

Last weekend's canyoning action for myself included Empress (no-one in
sight) and Water Dragon (not a soul). The weekend before I was in
Claustral and was surrounded by groups, commercial and private. Both
trips were great, but Claustral was more fun. It's still an awesome
canyon.

Cheers,
Adam Bramwell


Original message
>A note about commercial operators, after
>talking with researchers recently who are looking into the
recreational
>impacts of Canyoning, commercial groups only account for 10-15% of
the
>Canyoning scene, and that is at the main canyons. There are a lot of
>organised groups of people who may be from walking groups, social
groups,
>family and friends and also the non profit groups like scouts,
churches &
>youth groups (over 50 ppl in one group I saw). True, commercial
operators
>are charging money for Canyoning but they also contribute money
directly and
>indirectly to the npws for the privelege in license fees, per head
fees,
>company tax and income taxes etc. Other organised groups do not
contribute
>directly, usually have no operating standard and rarely formal
>qualifications to properly guide and deal with difficult situations,
causing
>more headaches for management and rescue authorities.
>I think considering the weather, Rocky Creek was the perfect canyon
for a
>lot of people who have been stuck inside with all the rain recently,
I could
>go up there today and find no-one.
>Have Fun!
>Lee Etherington




__________________________________________________________________
Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au
Hi Craig Flynn Dec 18, 2000
Hi guys

I just signed up and thought I'd say G'day.

Kids have slowed me up abit so I have not managed to get out yet this
season but some friends of mine rescently done the lower half of
Newnse (Starlight) canyon and reproted that after all the rain
the water level in the tunnel section is about chest deep and the
glowworms are loving it.
Canyons on Bali Poco Loco Adventures Dec 18, 2000
A friend of mine (and fellow canyoning-nut) will be on Bali - Indonesia during the next few weeks. Has anyone got info on canyons in that region/other islands ?
 
In your debt forever,
 
Koen
 
 
Hello from Arizona Rich Carlson Dec 23, 2000
I joined your list a couple of weeks ago for a variety of reasons. I
have been canyoneering for over 20 years, guiding for 10, and now
serve as the Executive Director of the American Canyoneering
Association (ACA).

http://wwww.canyoneering.net

I am also the moderator of the Canyons Group.

http://www.egroups.com/group/canyons

I recognize several of the names on your list as members of ours as
well.

Canyoneering has existed for several decades in the United States,
but it is only recently gaining major popularity. With growth comes a
myriad of concerns regarding safety and ethics. Our association has
close connections with the Commission Europeene de Canyon (CEC) and
we have learned a lot from them. I don't know if any formal
associations exist in Australia, but we would also like to establish a
relationship there. We believe that it is in everyone's best
interest, whether you are a recreator or a guide, to share
information and ideas.

We are anxious to learn about issues Australian canyoners have faced
in the past and how they are addressed. Issues such as access,
rescues, public opinion regarding "foolish thrill seekers" and
certification requirements for guides.

We are also curious to learn the level of skills and techniques
employed by canyoners in Australia. In the U.S. the skills of most
canyoneers are not very sophisticated. Sadly, the skills of most
canyoneering guides are not much better.

I am also very interested in making a personal pilgramage to the Blue
Mountains. I have already explored some of your canyons via the
Internet and am anxious to really get my feet wet. I would enjoy the
opportunity to meet as many Australian canyoners as possible during
my visit. In turn, if any of you ever visit Arizona or Utah, please
look me up. I would love to share some of our canyons with you.

We are looking forward to a mutually rewarding relationship with our
canyoning friends in Australia.

Rich Carlson
Blacksmiths Creek, Blue Mtns, Australia Mathew Black Dec 25, 2000
 
Blacksmiths Creek, Blue Mtns, Australia Mathew Black Dec 25, 2000
Hi, I'm a canyoner in Sydney Australia.
Just a bit of back ground of myself. I have been canyoning for about the last 3 years, and done about 25+ different day canyons. So I'm no expert just somebody who knows not to take stupid risks. This is my first 3 day canyon.
 
A couple of weeks ago 3 others and I completed the Blacksmith creek canyon. Two blokes from the RAAF Shane(fit), Dean(very fit) a Computer Mainframe Systems Operator, Me(reasonably fit) and a Film Producer Richard(the less fit of all), along to make some sort of doco with a waterproof video camera. My job was the first aid and survival gear. Starting at Mt Tootie near Bilpin and ending at 'Bob Turners' track. Well we started pretty badly, starting 1.5 hours late. Got permission to go through Itchenstoke property, if you don't have permission it is possible to cut through from Mountian Lagoon. We entered Blacksmiths creek at grid 954706 after about 3 hours of thick 'wait a minute' vines and only 3kms covered, we decided to hoof it back to the ridge 1/1 gradient, skip ahead and come down into the canyon again a bit further down. Well after about 14 kms we cut into a creek heading NNE and it was getting dark so we pitched camp blow-up air mattresses and a tarp to wrap around you, under a overhang, this was good because during the night it pissed down. But we were sheltered nicely except for the drips but we had a fire to heat some food up. Exhausted we sort of slept due to the constant drips. 4hrs approx.
 
The next day, 'if we head 1km NNE and 500m E then we should reach the Blacksmith again'. 3km NNE later we realised the we were geographically challenged. The creek we were in turned E for another 3km so some how we had made it into only one possible place, Middle creek. #$%^#@@%^ and some more. So up and over the ridge again. Back to Blacksmiths creek. 3.5kms on the map to go to where we wanted to be at the end of the second day, and only 3hrs of light left. So I knew Shane, Dean, and myself would make it. But Rich was finding it all too much by the time we reached the top of the ridge let alone getting back into the creek. The camera was about 7kilos heap of $#%#^ it didn't work anyway, we got no footage the tape was damaged, we all shared carrying the bloody thing and every discussed leaving it and claiming it on insurance. We really stepped up a gear and pushed on Rich was getting blurry vision from exhaustion. 150m or so to go and Shane said he was beat Dean too. Well I was starting to cramp up but said it can't be that far and got out the sharp prodding stick and said get moving we can make it, it can't be far. True to be 150m further we found the Colo River. Rich 'Are we there yet' as the others are yahooing. Finally we were on track just 5hrs late. Sleep came quickly but being out on the sand bar and exposed to the elements God decided to have a bit of fun and make it rain all night. Some idiot supplied (not me) 6'x4' tarps this would be ok if you were under 6' bit I'm not, so you either get your feet wet or your head (another 4hrs broken sleep again).
 
The next day was the 'fun part' air mattress float down river to our exit. The slower parts were the most taxing it takes a lot to swim with just your arms. Our bags attached via leg ropes floating behind. Some of the rapids could be navigated on the mattress and most well lets say that only the very stupid with a death wish would have a go. The smart tarp guy suggested to float the gear down one of these. Three bags and two mattresses didn't make it, stuck some where, 1hr later all present and accounted for. The next rapids smarty pants strikes again, 2 bags 3 mattresses missing. 1hr later we go again. The next rapids #$%^#& off I'm carrying mine. All agree that this is a good idea. We found a log, bag under, Dean and mattress over, Dean is stuck, one rescue coming up. Dean released, so it was Richards turn, two rescues later I said give me your bag and go yourself. Richard ok. So I had two bags one each leg (idiot) and ended up getting caught myself one leg up and one down, had to pull the bag back up stream against the water and over the log, Not an easy task if the other hand is still holding the mattress. I'm free I'm free floating down to the others, Shane says about time we've been waiting 1/2 hr for you. #@$@##% off Shane, up yours. The rest of the float was uneventful. And the walk out was only 2.4kms up a well built track with STEPS. At the top with no ride in sight, discussing if my wife remembered to come, 10 mins later vroom in she comes to greet some very weary travellers.
 
The moral of the story is allow more time than necessary, don't take a non-fit person on such a trek, get the right size tarp, check and recheck your map work, and take no bloody cans they are too bloody heavy, organise your own gear. Last but not least you can take your own #$^&##$%#^@ camera. 
 
Regards and Happy canyoning.
Mat Black
Blacksmiths Creek, Blue Mtns, Australia Mathew Black Dec 25, 2000
Hi, I'm a canyoner in Sydney Australia.
Just a bit of back ground of myself. I have been canyoning for about the last 3 years, and done about 25+ different day canyons. So I'm no expert just somebody who knows not to take stupid risks. This is my first 3 day canyon.
 
A couple of weeks ago 3 others and I completed the Blacksmith creek canyon. Two blokes from the RAAF Shane(fit), Dean(very fit) a Computer Mainframe Systems Operator, Me(reasonably fit) and a Film Producer Richard(the less fit of all), along to make some sort of doco with a waterproof video camera. My job was the first aid and survival gear. Starting at Mt Tootie near Bilpin and ending at 'Bob Turners' track. Well we started pretty badly, starting 1.5 hours late. Got permission to go through Itchenstoke property, if you don't have permission it is possible to cut through from Mountian Lagoon. We entered Blacksmiths creek at grid 954706 after about 3 hours of thick 'wait a minute' vines and only 3kms covered, we decided to hoof it back to the ridge 1/1 gradient, skip ahead and come down into the canyon again a bit further down. Well after about 14 kms we cut into a creek heading NNE and it was getting dark so we pitched camp blow-up air mattresses and a tarp to wrap around you, under a overhang, this was good because during the night it pissed down. But we were sheltered nicely except for the drips but we had a fire to heat some food up. Exhausted we sort of slept due to the constant drips. 4hrs approx.
 
The next day, 'if we head 1km NNE and 500m E then we should reach the Blacksmith again'. 3km NNE later we realised the we were geographically challenged. The creek we were in turned E for another 3km so some how we had made it into only one possible place, Middle creek. #$%^#@@%^ and some more. So up and over the ridge again. Back to Blacksmiths creek. 3.5kms on the map to go to where we wanted to be at the end of the second day, and only 3hrs of light left. So I knew Shane, Dean, and myself would make it. But Rich was finding it all too much by the time we reached the top of the ridge let alone getting back into the creek. The camera was about 7kilos heap of $#%#^ it didn't work anyway, we got no footage the tape was damaged, we all shared carrying the bloody thing and every discussed leaving it and claiming it on insurance. We really stepped up a gear and pushed on Rich was getting blurry vision from exhaustion. 150m or so to go and Shane said he was beat Dean too. Well I was starting to cramp up but said it can't be that far and got out the sharp prodding stick and said get moving we can make it, it can't be far. True to be 150m further we found the Colo River. Rich 'Are we there yet' as the others are yahooing. Finally we were on track just 5hrs late. Sleep came quickly but being out on the sand bar and exposed to the elements God decided to have a bit of fun and make it rain all night. Some idiot supplied (not me) 6'x4' tarps this would be ok if you were under 6' bit I'm not, so you either get your feet wet or your head (another 4hrs broken sleep again).
 
The next day was the 'fun part' air mattress float down river to our exit. The slower parts were the most taxing it takes a lot to swim with just your arms. Our bags attached via leg ropes floating behind. Some of the rapids could be navigated on the mattress and most well lets say that only the very stupid with a death wish would have a go. The smart tarp guy suggested to float the gear down one of these. Three bags and two mattresses didn't make it, stuck some where, 1hr later all present and accounted for. The next rapids smarty pants strikes again, 2 bags 3 mattresses missing. 1hr later we go again. The next rapids #$%^#& off I'm carrying mine. All agree that this is a good idea. We found a log, bag under, Dean and mattress over, Dean is stuck, one rescue coming up. Dean released, so it was Richards turn, two rescues later I said give me your bag and go yourself. Richard ok. So I had two bags one each leg (idiot) and ended up getting caught myself one leg up and one down, had to pull the bag back up stream against the water and over the log, Not an easy task if the other hand is still holding the mattress. I'm free I'm free floating down to the others, Shane says about time we've been waiting 1/2 hr for you. #@$@##% off Shane, up yours. The rest of the float was uneventful. And the walk out was only 2.4kms up a well built track with STEPS. At the top with no ride in sight, discussing if my wife remembered to come, 10 mins later vroom in she comes to greet some very weary travellers.
 
The moral of the story is allow more time than necessary, don't take a non-fit person on such a trek, get the right size tarp, check and recheck your map work, and take no bloody cans they are too bloody heavy, organise your own gear. Last but not least you can take your own #$^&##$%#^@ camera. 
 
Regards and Happy canyoning.
Mat Black
Blacksmiths Creek, Blue Mtns, Australia Mathew Black Dec 25, 2000
Hi, I'm a canyoner in Sydney Australia.
Just a bit of back ground of myself. I have been canyoning for about the last 3 years, and done about 25+ different day canyons. So I'm no expert just somebody who knows not to take stupid risks. This is my first 3 day canyon.
 
A couple of weeks ago 3 others and I completed the Blacksmith creek canyon. Two blokes from the RAAF Shane(fit), Dean(very fit) a Computer Mainframe Systems Operator, Me(reasonably fit) and a Film Producer Richard(the less fit of all), along to make some sort of doco with a waterproof video camera. My job was the first aid and survival gear. Starting at Mt Tootie near Bilpin and ending at 'Bob Turners' track. Well we started pretty badly, starting 1.5 hours late. Got permission to go through Itchenstoke property, if you don't have permission it is possible to cut through from Mountian Lagoon. We entered Blacksmiths creek at grid 954706 after about 3 hours of thick 'wait a minute' vines and only 3kms covered, we decided to hoof it back to the ridge 1/1 gradient, skip ahead and come down into the canyon again a bit further down. Well after about 14 kms we cut into a creek heading NNE and it was getting dark so we pitched camp blow-up air mattresses and a tarp to wrap around you, under a overhang, this was good because during the night it pissed down. But we were sheltered nicely except for the drips but we had a fire to heat some food up. Exhausted we sort of slept due to the constant drips. 4hrs approx.
 
The next day, 'if we head 1km NNE and 500m E then we should reach the Blacksmith again'. 3km NNE later we realised the we were geographically challenged. The creek we were in turned E for another 3km so some how we had made it into only one possible place, Middle creek. #$%^#@@%^ and some more. So up and over the ridge again. Back to Blacksmiths creek. 3.5kms on the map to go to where we wanted to be at the end of the second day, and only 3hrs of light left. So I knew Shane, Dean, and myself would make it. But Rich was finding it all too much by the time we reached the top of the ridge let alone getting back into the creek. The camera was about 7kilos heap of $#%#^ it didn't work anyway, we got no footage the tape was damaged, we all shared carrying the bloody thing and every discussed leaving it and claiming it on insurance. We really stepped up a gear and pushed on Rich was getting blurry vision from exhaustion. 150m or so to go and Shane said he was beat Dean too. Well I was starting to cramp up but said it can't be that far and got out the sharp prodding stick and said get moving we can make it, it can't be far. True to be 150m further we found the Colo River. Rich 'Are we there yet' as the others are yahooing. Finally we were on track just 5hrs late. Sleep came quickly but being out on the sand bar and exposed to the elements God decided to have a bit of fun and make it rain all night. Some idiot supplied (not me) 6'x4' tarps this would be ok if you were under 6' bit I'm not, so you either get your feet wet or your head (another 4hrs broken sleep again).
 
The next day was the 'fun part' air mattress float down river to our exit. The slower parts were the most taxing it takes a lot to swim with just your arms. Our bags attached via leg ropes floating behind. Some of the rapids could be navigated on the mattress and most well lets say that only the very stupid with a death wish would have a go. The smart tarp guy suggested to float the gear down one of these. Three bags and two mattresses didn't make it, stuck some where, 1hr later all present and accounted for. The next rapids smarty pants strikes again, 2 bags 3 mattresses missing. 1hr later we go again. The next rapids #$%^#& off I'm carrying mine. All agree that this is a good idea. We found a log, bag under, Dean and mattress over, Dean is stuck, one rescue coming up. Dean released, so it was Richards turn, two rescues later I said give me your bag and go yourself. Richard ok. So I had two bags one each leg (idiot) and ended up getting caught myself one leg up and one down, had to pull the bag back up stream against the water and over the log, Not an easy task if the other hand is still holding the mattress. I'm free I'm free floating down to the others, Shane says about time we've been waiting 1/2 hr for you. #@$@##% off Shane, up yours. The rest of the float was uneventful. And the walk out was only 2.4kms up a well built track with STEPS. At the top with no ride in sight, discussing if my wife remembered to come, 10 mins later vroom in she comes to greet some very weary travellers.
 
The moral of the story is allow more time than necessary, don't take a non-fit person on such a trek, get the right size tarp, check and recheck your map work, and take no bloody cans they are too bloody heavy, organise your own gear. Last but not least you can take your own #$^&##$%#^@ camera. 
 
Regards and Happy canyoning.
Mat Black
Multi email Mathew Black Dec 25, 2000
Sorry about sending it 4 times oops. Got a weird message the first three.
Mat.
Re: Hello from Arizona John Chisholm Dec 27, 2000
> I recognize several of the names on your list as members of ours as
> well.

Yep, that'd be me

> I don't know if any formal
> associations exist in Australia, but we would also like to establish
> a relationship there. We believe that it is in everyone's best
> interest, whether you are a recreator or a guide, to share
> information and ideas.

There is a question, I assume we don't have such a group? I agree with
the idea that such groups benefit their members and provide a voice on
relevant issues. Do people on the list believe that ORCA (and the
state bodies) fulfil this role?

> We are anxious to learn about issues Australian canyoners have faced
> in the past and how they are addressed. Issues such as access,
> rescues, public opinion regarding "foolish thrill seekers" and
> certification requirements for guides.

As far as I can tell from your list Rich, the issues tend to be much
the same. However we have a fairly strong no-bolt ethic in Australian
canyoning so a lot of the debate surrounding the best placement of
bolts etc we don't have. This said bolts have appeared in some places.

> We are also curious to learn the level of skills and techniques
> employed by canyoners in Australia. In the U.S. the skills of most
> canyoneers are not very sophisticated. Sadly, the skills of most
> canyoneering guides are not much better.

Not very sophisticated? Hell we're Australians Most sophisticated
country in the world. I try to start my canyon in a morning suit and
finish in a top hat and tails. Whoops, not what you meant? I think
Australia has its share of innovation and sophistication in outdoor
pursuits, but from my experiences overseas (very limited - just the
UK) we tend to move away from over sophisticated methods in favour of
the keep it simple philosophy.

If I'm correct we owe more of our canyoning ethic to caving than to
rock climbing. While I seem to think in the US you have a climbing
style of canyoning (hence all the bolt debates - sport Vs trad etc)

> I am also very interested in making a personal pilgramage to the
> Blue Mountains. I have already explored some of your canyons via the
> Internet and am anxious to really get my feet wet. I would enjoy the
> opportunity to meet as many Australian canyoners as possible during
> my visit. In turn, if any of you ever visit Arizona or Utah, please
> look me up. I would love to share some of our canyons with you.

Tell the group when you expect to arrive, you'll have more offers of
canyons than you could possibly cope with (or I'm a bad judge of
character)

> We are looking forward to a mutually rewarding relationship with our
> canyoning friends in Australia.

I hope so, I know I learn a lot from the US list.

John Chisholm

What do you all think about the idea of a canyoning group?
Or perhaps just a small canyoning newsletter for Australia?
Re: Hello from Arizona Lee Etherington Dec 27, 2000
G'day Rich & Welcome to the OzCanyons list,
In response,
> myriad of concerns regarding safety and ethics. Our association has
> close connections with the Commission Europeene de Canyon (CEC) and
> we have learned a lot from them. I don't know if any formal
> associations exist in Australia, but we would also like to
establish a
> relationship there. We believe that it is in everyone's best
> interest, whether you are a recreator or a guide, to share
> information and ideas.
With regards to formal associations, there is no real recognised
association or body although the Outdoor Recreation Industry Council
ORIC has been trying to become a recognised body for many years,
I fully agree that it is in everyones best interest to share
information and ideas(the primary goal of the OzCanyons discussion
group) however the Oz Canyoning scene has many different interest
groups who are all poorly communicated and understood. There is some
research being done on the recreational impacts of canyoning at the
University of Western Sydeny Hawkesbury which will hopefully shed
some light.
>
> We are anxious to learn about issues Australian canyoners have faced
> in the past and how they are addressed. Issues such as access,
> rescues, public opinion regarding "foolish thrill seekers" and
> certification requirements for guides.
Access has been topical of late as the public land managers continue
to block off tracks that are used to access large canyon systems due
to Wilderness declarations.
'Foolish thrill seekers' tend to be classified as base jumpers in
australia, which
is illegal, the National Parks & Wildlife Service NPWS have tried to
get everyone to inform them of intended activities but this hasn't
worked
as far as i know (perhaps someone from the Blue Mountains NPWS could
comment here??)

certification of guides is another contentious one, no established
standard of qualification or experience but in my opinion:
at least 30 canyons (i know of guides who have done 3 and become
regular commercial guides for some companies)
Abseiling instructor certification by a leading outdoor trainer (eg
Australian School of Mountaineering)
Bronze Medallion or Canyon water rescue current certificate
Advanced navigation/map reading certification
local resident to the region of guiding (will know about weather
patterns/recent activity)
done the canyon at least 3 times before (once under commercial
conditions as trainee guide)
Remote area first aid (3 day course) with preference for Wilderness
first aid certification (7 days+ course)
not to mention the people, leadership skills etc etc.

>
> We are also curious to learn the level of skills and techniques
> employed by canyoners in Australia. In the U.S. the skills of most
> canyoneers are not very sophisticated. Sadly, the skills of most
> canyoneering guides are not much better.

ditto, not too many skills are needed for private parties to navigate
many canyons reasonably safely. I am surprised there are not more
accidents in our canyons however many are not reported.

> I am also very interested in making a personal pilgramage to the
Blue
> Mountains. I have already explored some of your canyons via the
> Internet and am anxious to really get my feet wet. I would enjoy
the
Perhaps we should organise a Canyoning get together. could be run
over three or so days, based at Kurrajong heights in the northern
blue mountains. opportunity for workshops, educational slide shows in
the evenings with guest speakers including You, Rich providing an
American perspective and insight to your local canyons, and a swag of
Australian local identities... Dave Stuckys 3d canyoning slide show,
Rick Jamieson on his guide books, Dave Noble on the history of
Canyoning, day trips to some favourite canyons looking in depth at
canyon ecology, Just a thought but the capacity is there! Could be
fun...
also looking forward to sharing information and perspecitves with the
ACA and American Canyoneers, look forward to your input, Rich.
Regards & Seasons Greeting to all,
Lee Etherington
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Hello from Arizona Matthew Black Dec 27, 2000
----- Original Message -----
From: John Chisholm <jchish03@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2000 10:23 AM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Hello from Arizona


> > I recognize several of the names on your list as members of ours as
> > well.
>
> Yep, that'd be me
>
> > I don't know if any formal
> > associations exist in Australia, but we would also like to establish
> > a relationship there. We believe that it is in everyone's best
> > interest, whether you are a recreator or a guide, to share
> > information and ideas.
>
> There is a question, I assume we don't have such a group? I agree with
> the idea that such groups benefit their members and provide a voice on
> relevant issues. Do people on the list believe that ORCA (and the
> state bodies) fulfil this role?
>
> > We are anxious to learn about issues Australian canyoners have faced
> > in the past and how they are addressed. Issues such as access,
> > rescues, public opinion regarding "foolish thrill seekers" and
> > certification requirements for guides.
>
> As far as I can tell from your list Rich, the issues tend to be much
> the same. However we have a fairly strong no-bolt ethic in Australian
> canyoning so a lot of the debate surrounding the best placement of
> bolts etc we don't have. This said bolts have appeared in some places.
>
> > We are also curious to learn the level of skills and techniques
> > employed by canyoners in Australia. In the U.S. the skills of most
> > canyoneers are not very sophisticated. Sadly, the skills of most
> > canyoneering guides are not much better.
>
> Not very sophisticated? Hell we're Australians Most sophisticated
> country in the world. I try to start my canyon in a morning suit and
> finish in a top hat and tails. Whoops, not what you meant? I think
> Australia has its share of innovation and sophistication in outdoor
> pursuits, but from my experiences overseas (very limited - just the
> UK) we tend to move away from over sophisticated methods in favour of
> the keep it simple philosophy.
>
> If I'm correct we owe more of our canyoning ethic to caving than to
> rock climbing. While I seem to think in the US you have a climbing
> style of canyoning (hence all the bolt debates - sport Vs trad etc)
>
> > I am also very interested in making a personal pilgramage to the
> > Blue Mountains. I have already explored some of your canyons via the
> > Internet and am anxious to really get my feet wet. I would enjoy the
> > opportunity to meet as many Australian canyoners as possible during
> > my visit. In turn, if any of you ever visit Arizona or Utah, please
> > look me up. I would love to share some of our canyons with you.
>
> Tell the group when you expect to arrive, you'll have more offers of
> canyons than you could possibly cope with (or I'm a bad judge of
> character)
>
> > We are looking forward to a mutually rewarding relationship with our
> > canyoning friends in Australia.
>
> I hope so, I know I learn a lot from the US list.
>
> John Chisholm
>
> What do you all think about the idea of a canyoning group?
> Or perhaps just a small canyoning newsletter for Australia?
>
>
There, (I would be guessing) would be quite a few people interested in
hanging you by the neck intill you cheer up.
No.......seriously I would take you on a canyon (no redneck idiots please),
I am involved in running a adventure bound church group, (we investigate the
risks and explore first before taking a group through). I recently had the
oppprtunity to take a few American missionaries from Michigan through a
challenging but rewarding canyon (Tiger snake). A great day was had by all.
On the walk in they were getting off on the trees the pagodas and the views
each time I said 'it gets better' and they were not dissapointed. After the
trip they were encouraged to have a adventure group attached to their church
back home.
I hope you would not be dissapointed, but completly satisfied.

Mat Black

>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
Canyoning get together John Chisholm Dec 27, 2000
> Perhaps we should organise a Canyoning get together. could be run
> over three or so days, based at Kurrajong heights in the northern
> blue mountains. opportunity for workshops, educational slide shows
in
> the evenings with guest speakers including You, Rich providing an
> American perspective and insight to your local canyons, and a swag
of
> Australian local identities... Dave Stuckys 3d canyoning slide show,
> Rick Jamieson on his guide books, Dave Noble on the history of
> Canyoning, day trips to some favourite canyons looking in depth at
> canyon ecology, Just a thought but the capacity is there! Could be
> fun...
> also looking forward to sharing information and perspecitves with
the
> ACA and American Canyoneers.

This idea works for me, I'm sure there are enough people on this list
alone to make something like this work. I'd be happy to sit back and
listen to those guys chat on about canyoning. I also whole heatedly
agree with the location. Feel free to involve me in organising
something like this, I'd love to be of help (read, I'd prefer not to
pay for admission. But I can work my passage ).

Perhaps also on the agenda discussions regarding an (informal)
canyoning group.

John Chisholm
Re: Canyoning get together Rich Carlson Dec 29, 2000
Thanks for your responses, guys. A canyon get together sounds like a
blast. In fact, Stefan Hofmann (Commission Europeene de Canyon) and I
have discussed making a trip to Australia together. He has some nice
slides of canyons in Europe, especially the south of France. Perhaps
Koen could provide some Pyrenees slides.

I have started to add some techniques to our web site. I'd be
interested to have some of you take a look to see if anything looks
familiar, or if your techniques are completely different. You'll find
the work-in-progress at

http://www.canyoneering.net/canyoneering_technique.html

Rich
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning get together Poco Loco Adventures Dec 29, 2000
I promise to send in some video images of the Pyrenees to while away those
long february nights at the bar in front of the fireplace - after you guys
make it back frozen stiff out of some canyon, that is.

----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Carlson <rcwild@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2000 6:40 PM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning get together


> Thanks for your responses, guys. A canyon get together sounds like a
> blast. In fact, Stefan Hofmann (Commission Europeene de Canyon) and I
> have discussed making a trip to Australia together. He has some nice
> slides of canyons in Europe, especially the south of France. Perhaps
> Koen could provide some Pyrenees slides.
>
> I have started to add some techniques to our web site. I'd be
> interested to have some of you take a look to see if anything looks
> familiar, or if your techniques are completely different. You'll find
> the work-in-progress at
>
> http://www.canyoneering.net/canyoneering_technique.html
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
RE: [OzCanyons] Canyoning get together Local Focus Nature Tours Jan 1, 2001
Thanks John, for your offer of help,
I am looking further into the possibility of organizing a get together at
minimal cost but there are many variables to consider.
It would be great to hear from other members of the list to gather their
ideas about such an event. I thrive on constructive criticism so let me know
your thoughts!
I think it would be a great opportunity to share information, experiences,
techniques and stories about Canyoning and hopefully with some international
perspectives aswell. What do you all think?

Lee Etherington
Email: localfocus@...
Interested in Canyoning? visit the OzCanyons discussion group
Weekend Woes! Lee Etherington Jan 1, 2001
G'day ppl,
just a quick update, last weekend some of you may have seen on the
news some detail about another claustral incident...
details from the local fire brigade are that the group of three left
for claustral at 3pm, half way through the canyon one of them broke a
leg. The other two split up, one went upstream, one downstream.
upstream one made it out to get help including the chopper, one who
went downstream missed the exit and got lost... havent heard the
final detail, anyone else got any information.

Also, coming into Wollangambe 1 on the weekend, met a group where one
member was stage 2 hypothermic, quickly moving to the start of stage
3ish. blue & pink, uncontrolled shivering, very slow response,
irrational and couldn't stand/dizzy. pulled her out of that
reasonably quickly with thermals, beanies, socks, space blankets,
gore tex, sweet hot drinks (yes, i had to run the stove during a fire
ban) cuddling by her partner etc. All of which her party did not have
(apart from the partner!). she was then put on a very hard lilo to
keep her out of the water & pulled to the exit. Just goes to show
that things can get very serious even during good old wollangambe 1!
Have Fun!
Lee Etherington
Hi/Hole-in-the-wall gbrown@gmp.usyd.edu.au Jan 3, 2001
Hi. Just joined the group. Great Idea. I'm planning to do Hole in the
wall for the first time this weeken, any tips or info would be greatly
appreciated.

Cheers
GARY
Re: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall Matthew Black Jan 3, 2001
Gary,
I've done it. Its a good one, NO FAT PEOPLE, I'm not discriminating against
fat people but they WILL get stuck. For the walk in I don't know if there is
a new gate or not, But at about GR508027 (Wollangambe Map) there is the goat
track heading NNE, as Jamisons book says (track), dont follow the fire trail
any further take the goat track. Almost off the map there is a rock pagoda
at GR515039 here is the entry (yes it does go south for a little bit), the
other track is the exit track. Take a few large 2m or 2x1m slings for around
the big log, for when you go down into the dark part. Got any head lamps
these are invaluable for the short dark section. The tight squeeze in the
dark is difficult if you ate too much over christmas, up on the right look
easy but don't slip. Low on the left is easier although broader people may
have to go under water. The last 3-4m abseil is a pain if you only take a
50m. Take a short strop for this one, makes it easier.
It gets its name (I'm led to believe) from when you reach the Bungleboori
and look back at the exit, looks like a wombat hole with a small fissure
leading upwards. Go upstream for the exit, around the left hook the first
rockshelf is where the exit is.
Enjoy (I have to work)
Regards Mat Black
----- Original Message -----
From: <gbrown@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:13 PM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall


> Hi. Just joined the group. Great Idea. I'm planning to do Hole in the
> wall for the first time this weeken, any tips or info would be greatly
> appreciated.
>
> Cheers
> GARY
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Canyons near Brisbane Brenton Searle Jan 4, 2001
Hi,

I am wondering if anyone in your group knows of any canyons in the
Brisbane or S/E QLD area. I have just returned to brisbane from 3
weeks in the Blue Mountains, where I enjoyed doing Grand and Butterbox
Canyons.

Myself and a few others are keen to find out any info on canyons in
our area.

If anyone knows of any can they please let me know, as any info would
be appreciated.

Thanks

Brenton
RE: [OzCanyons] Canyons near Brisbane Lee Etherington Jan 4, 2001
There is some reasonable slot canyons out at Carnarvon george. Also I
believe there is one or two in Lamington National Park. These are different
to the Canyons of the Blue Mountains and you will probably be disappointed!
The only area that does not disappoint me with regards to Canyoning is
Arnham Land Canyons in the Northern Territory and Karijini Canyons in
Western Australia. Both of those areas have incredible slot canyons. Good
luck exploring your local mountains.
I am at Kurrajong Heights in the northern Blue Mountains and there is a
massive black and purple storm approaching! Hope not too many people are in
the crux of a canyon right now...
Have Fun!
Lee
RE: [OzCanyons] Canyons near Brisbane don@lanscape.net.au Jan 4, 2001
The canyons in Canarvon NP are quite extensive and the ones I have seen are
quite similar to the Blue Mtns (maybe its because it was raining at the time).
There are also some canyons in the forests near Coffs Harbour - an Outdoor
group in Coffs Harbour should be able to point you in the right direction.
A bit far to drive for a daytrip from Brisbane though.

Ditto for the big black storm clouds (I am in Wilberforce).
Maybe the water in the Colo will rise abit - it was going down last weekend.

regards
Bronwyn Davey

>
Dark Clouds and Sydney Webguy from www.diveoz.com.au Jan 5, 2001
I do not know wether you know of this site, bit it's updated every 10 minutes.

http://mirror.bom.gov.au/products/IDR033.shtml

This shows the Sydney Weather Radar for a distance of 200 kms or so, very good to have a quick look in the morning and see what's coming in.

Cheers

Neil


Dive-Oz Web Services
Webdesign & Programming, Hosting, E-Commerce, Web Databases, ASP, GFX Design
Our new Y2K Revamped website is now online!
Web Site: www.diveoz.com.au
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MOBILE: 0414 604 853
FAX: (02) 9834 6120

Re: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall Gary Brown Aug 27, 1956
Mat,

Thanks for the information. No problems with gear or head torches but unfortunately one of our party could be described as being slightly overweight/stocky (I just organized an XXL wetsuit for him) ( he has two canyons under his belt - Starlight and Jungaburra (at night)). Could we scrap the squeeze for him and take the alternate route? Would high water levels adversely affect this route? (looks like rain on Sunday) Sorry about the tricky questions.

Thanks again,
GARY

Matthew Black wrote:

 Gary,
I've done it. Its a good one, NO FAT PEOPLE, I'm not discriminating against
fat people but they WILL get stuck. For the walk in I don't know if there is
a new gate or not, But at about GR508027 (Wollangambe Map) there is the goat
track heading NNE, as Jamisons book says (track), dont follow the fire trail
any further take the goat track. Almost off the map there is a rock pagoda
at GR515039 here is the entry (yes it does go south for a little bit), the
other track is the exit track. Take a few large 2m or 2x1m slings for around
the big log, for when you go down into the dark part. Got any head lamps
these are invaluable for the short dark section. The tight squeeze in the
dark is difficult if you ate too much over christmas, up on the right look
easy but don't slip. Low on the left is easier although broader people may
have to go under water. The last 3-4m abseil is a pain if you only take a
50m. Take a short strop for this one, makes it easier.
It gets its name (I'm led to believe) from when you reach the Bungleboori
and look back at the exit, looks like a wombat hole with a small fissure
leading upwards. Go upstream for the exit, around the left hook the first
rockshelf is where the exit is.
Enjoy (I have to work)
Regards Mat Black
----- Original Message -----
From: <gbrown@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:13 PM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall
 
 
 

Re: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall Flynn Jan 5, 2001
Hi guys

I've done Hole in the Wall a few times and have had no problem with getting
bigger guys though. Last couple of times the tunnel had unsilted itself and
there was a fairly large passage down to the left (rather then the squeeze
up to the right) that most people would fit through with out too much
difficulty.
I've heard it's also possible to by pass the tunnal by climbing over the
top though I'm not sure how hard this would be or if you'd need to abseil
back down.


At 09:37 PM 8/27/70 +0000, you wrote:
> Mat, Thanks for the information. No problems with gear or head torches
>but unfortunately one of our party could be described as being slightly
>overweight/stocky (I just organized an XXL wetsuit for him) ( he has two
>canyons under his belt - Starlight and Jungaburra (at night)). Could we
>scrap the squeeze for him and take the alternate route? Would high water
>levels adversely affect this route? (looks like rain on Sunday) Sorry about
>the tricky questions. Thanks again,
>GARY Matthew Black wrote: Gary,
>I've done it. Its a good one, NO FAT PEOPLE, I'm not discriminating against
>fat people but they WILL get stuck. For the walk in I don't know if there is
>a new gate or not, But at about GR508027 (Wollangambe Map) there is the goat
>track heading NNE, as Jamisons book says (track), dont follow the fire trail
>any further take the goat track. Almost off the map there is a rock pagoda
>at GR515039 here is the entry (yes it does go south for a little bit), the
>other track is the exit track. Take a few large 2m or 2x1m slings for around
>the big log, for when you go down into the dark part. Got any head lamps
>these are invaluable for the short dark section. The tight squeeze in the
>dark is difficult if you ate too much over christmas, up on the right look
>easy but don't slip. Low on the left is easier although broader people may
>have to go under water. The last 3-4m abseil is a pain if you only take a
>50m. Take a short strop for this one, makes it easier.
>It gets its name (I'm led to believe) from when you reach the Bungleboori
>and look back at the exit, looks like a wombat hole with a small fissure
>leading upwards. Go upstream for the exit, around the left hook the first
>rockshelf is where the exit is.
>Enjoy (I have to work)
>Regards Mat Black
>----- Original Message -----
><gbrown@...>
><OzCanyons@egroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:13 PM
>Subject: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall
>
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Flynn
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall Gary Brown Jan 6, 2001
Thanks, we'll wing it tomorrow and see how it goes. I'll post if we have any problems.

G

Flynn wrote:

 Hi guys

I've done Hole in the Wall a few times and have had no problem with getting
bigger guys though. Last couple of times the tunnel had unsilted itself and
there was a fairly large passage down to the left (rather then the squeeze
up to the right) that most people would fit through with out too much
difficulty.
I've heard it's also possible to by pass the tunnal by climbing over the
top  though I'm not sure how hard this would be or if you'd need to abseil
back down.
 

At 09:37 PM 8/27/70 +0000, you wrote:
> Mat,  Thanks for the information. No problems with gear or head torches
>but unfortunately one of our party could be described as being slightly
>overweight/stocky (I just organized an XXL wetsuit for him) ( he has two
>canyons under his belt - Starlight and Jungaburra (at night)). Could we
>scrap the squeeze for him and take the alternate route? Would high water
>levels adversely affect this route? (looks like rain on Sunday) Sorry about
>the tricky questions.  Thanks again,
>GARY  Matthew Black wrote:  Gary,
>I've done it. Its a good one, NO FAT PEOPLE, I'm not discriminating against
>fat people but they WILL get stuck. For the walk in I don't know if there is
>a new gate or not, But at about GR508027 (Wollangambe Map) there is the goat
>track heading NNE, as Jamisons book says (track), dont follow the fire trail
>any further take the goat track. Almost off the map there is a rock pagoda
>at GR515039 here is the entry (yes it does go south for a little bit), the
>other track is the exit track. Take a few large 2m or 2x1m slings for around
>the big log, for when you go down into the dark part. Got any head lamps
>these are invaluable for the short dark section. The tight squeeze in the
>dark is difficult if you ate too much over christmas, up on the right look
>easy but don't slip. Low on the left is easier although broader people may
>have to go under water. The last 3-4m abseil is a pain if you only take a
>50m. Take a short strop for this one, makes it easier.
>It gets its name (I'm led to believe) from when you reach the Bungleboori
>and look back at the exit, looks like a wombat hole with a small fissure
>leading upwards. Go upstream for the exit, around the left hook the first
>rockshelf is where the exit is.
>Enjoy (I have to work)
>Regards Mat Black
>----- Original Message -----
><gbrown@...>
><OzCanyons@egroups.com>
>Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2001 12:13 PM
>Subject: [OzCanyons] Hi/Hole-in-the-wall
>
>
>
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Re: Hole in the wall Canyon Mathew Black Jan 6, 2001
Gary,
I hope this finds you in time, (I'm at work tonight). As far as I know
there is no alternate route for the highlight section. And high water would

affect the tight squeeze (BYO submarine). When I did it, the (fat) bloke in

our group was about 120cm chest measurement. He found it difficult but came

back for more.

P.S. Got the message 0230 in the morning at work.
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Hole in the wall Canyon Gary Brown Jan 6, 2001
Thanks Mat. Just leaving now. Weather looks OK. Our fat bloke should be fine.
Regards
GARY

Mathew Black wrote:

 Gary,
I hope this finds you in time, (I'm at work tonight). As far as I know
there is no alternate route for the highlight section. And high water would

affect the tight squeeze (BYO submarine). When I did it, the (fat) bloke in

our group was about 120cm chest measurement. He found it difficult but came

back for more.

P.S. Got the message 0230 in the morning at work.
 


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RE: [OzCanyons] Dark Clouds and Sydney Lee Etherington Jan 7, 2001

Thanks for that one Neil,

An excellent link showing current rainfall within ~150 k’s of Sydney, I have added it to the links page, in the Check out the weather! Folder.

If anyone else has links that are suitable, don’t hesitate to add them yourself to the links, files or other sections. Everyone is also most welcome to post their own favourite pictures in the Files section, just make your own folder and upload your pics! We have 20.5Mb of webspace available, only 123K has been used so far.

Great to see some discussion happening, hole in the wall is definitely a favourite of many people.

Have Fun!

Lee Etherington

Outdoor Rec. Training Package John Chisholm Jan 7, 2001
As I have mentioned before I do some training for a group called Royal
Rangers (similar to scouts or boys brigade).

Anyway, I was wanting to get a look at the outdoor rec training stuff,
but I don't have the $700 to buy it myself. Does anyone know of a
library which has it? Or even better do one of you have a copy you
would be prepared to lend me for a short time?

I'm at Bowen Mt so I'm quite local to most of you, and I'd take
perfect care of any borrowed copy.

thanks guys,

John Chisholm
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Hole in the wall Canyon Gary Brown Jan 9, 2001
Did HITW on Sunday. It was an absolute magic day, warm and sunny even
though storms were brewing just west of the ranges all day. Great
canyon, has a little bit of everything.Thanks to everyone for all the
info. The larger guy in our group couldn't make the squeeze on the right
so we all went through the dark section by going low on the left. We had
to get on our backs up to the ears in water and then squeeze through. I
can see how this might be a problem if water levels were any higher. The
water was so warm that we stopped at several of the pools where the sun
was streaming in and just floated around for a while. When we got to the
Bungleboori a couple of monster yabbies thought that our volleys might
make a good lunch while we were wearing them. Lots of big friendly
lizards at the big bend too. All in all a most enjoyable day.


GARY
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Hole in the wall Canyon Flynn Jan 9, 2001
G'day Gary

Glad to here you had fun and had no trouble with the storms, Lithgow was
hit by a big storm late Sunday afternoon which lasted well into the night.

Anyway if you want to relive your advernture check out my Virtual tour of
Hole in the Wall canyon <http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/2151/h1.html>



At 03:08 PM 1/9/01 +0000, you wrote:
> Did HITW on Sunday. It was an absolute magic day, warm and sunny even
> though storms were brewing just west of the ranges all day. Great
> canyon, has a little bit of everything.Thanks to everyone for all the
> info. The larger guy in our group couldn't make the squeeze on the right
> so we all went through the dark section by going low on the left. We had
> to get on our backs up to the ears in water and then squeeze through. I
> can see how this might be a problem if water levels were any higher. The
> water was so warm that we stopped at several of the pools where the sun
> was streaming in and just floated around for a while. When we got to the
> Bungleboori a couple of monster yabbies thought that our volleys might
> make a good lunch while we were wearing them. Lots of big friendly
> lizards at the big bend too. All in all a most enjoyable day.
>
>
> GARY
>
>
>
>
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<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Bowens Creek cathi.humphrey-hood@jameshardie.com.au Jan 14, 2001
On Saturday 15th January, 4 of us went through the North Branch of
Bowen's Creek. The weather was warm and pleasant and there was no one
else in sight, which made for a good, easy day's canyoning. One thing
that disturbed us, however, was the amount of rubbish we found. We
carried out tin lids and bubble gum wrappers, duct tape and plastic,
but drew the line at a clear plastic lunch bag which a large number
of maggots had taken up residence in. I have found the odd plastic
bag and bottle top in canyons before, but this was about the worst I
have seen! Spread the word - CLEAN UP before you leave a lunch spot
in a canyon!
Re: Rubbish (Bowens Creek) John Chisholm Jan 14, 2001
This is what I like to see,
Not someone complaining about the damage that people do, but someone
willing to get in there and fix things up.

This is waht we should all be teaching those who come through canyons
with us, bring an empty shopping bag and be willing to fill it with
other people's rubbish. It makes it better for the next group and you
can hope that if they find it looking pristine they'll leave it that
way.

John Chisholm
Re: Rubbish (Bowens Creek) d.lockwood@cchs.usyd.edu.au Jan 15, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "John Chisholm" <jchish03@h...> wrote:
> This is what I like to see,
> Not someone complaining about the damage that people do, but
someone
> willing to get in there and fix things up.
>
> This is waht we should all be teaching those who come through
canyons
> with us, bring an empty shopping bag and be willing to fill it with
> other people's rubbish. It makes it better for the next group and
you
> can hope that if they find it looking pristine they'll leave it
that
> way.
>
Fair enough but i think it's true that some canyons are too popular
and would benefit from access restrictions.This would help to
conserve
their natural values.
It would also be helpful if guidebook authors refrained from
publishing new canyons(new to them).There is already a considerable
number of them published.Does publishing more of them benefit their
conservation?

Any comments?

Dave
[OzCanyons] Re: Rubbish (Bowens Creek) Chris Cook Jan 15, 2001
Unfortunately I think that relying on people to voluntarily refrain from publishing information about canyon location will never work. It is a cumulative process, as the years go by, more and more info about canyons leaks out & builds up in areas accessible to just about anyone (even in this group !!!!!)
 
Everybody has such different ideas about what is an acceptable level of impact on the canyons. All extremes of opinion exist from complete open slather (publish locations & build roads right to the start of the canyon) to a complete ban on human access. I'm not commenting on which approach is right, just that since such a difference of opinion exists there will always be someone willing to publish details. So I think we have to accept that as time goes by more info about canyons will come into the public arena. This means that the only way to effectively minimise impact is to make access more difficult. For example, last Sunday there was a single group of about 20 people in Rocky Creek. How many of them would have been keen to do the trip if the road was closed from Clarence and the trip required a 30km bike ride on top of the 15minute walk ? This is a extreme example, but I'm sure that even if all of Sydney new the location of Rocky Creek this would make it a nice quiet canyon for a weekend trip.
 
I suppose what I'm saying is that we can't hope to restrict information about canyons, so perhaps access restrictions (road closures) are the only sure way to manage usage.
 
Chris
 
 
 effectivelyFrom: d.lockwood@...
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2001 9:50 AM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Rubbish (Bowens Creek)

--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "John Chisholm" <jchish03@h...> wrote:
> This is what I like to see,
> Not someone complaining about the damage that people do, but
someone
> willing to get in there and fix things up.
>
> This is waht we should all be teaching those who come through
canyons
> with us, bring an empty shopping bag and be willing to fill it with
> other people's rubbish. It makes it better for the next group and
you
> can hope that if they find it looking pristine they'll leave it
that
> way.
>
Fair enough but i think it's true that some canyons are too popular
and would benefit from access restrictions.This would help to
conserve
their natural values.
It would also be helpful if guidebook authors refrained from
publishing new canyons(new to them).There is already a considerable
number of them published.Does publishing more of them benefit their
conservation?

Any comments?

Dave




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com


Re: Rubbish (Bowens Creek) John Chisholm Jan 15, 2001
There are problems in management by secrecy, as has been evidenced in
other conservation areas (caves to name a big one).
The canyons would still get visited and the access to the information
does not get distributed equitably. You end up with an elitist
attitude and eventually the locations get out anyway. There is also a
problem with this in that people who aren't supposed to know about the
canyons do them without telling people where they are going, a big
problem when it comes to accidents, rescues and so on.

The idea of gates etc. can work, but who are we to decide that only
those capable of a big walk deserve to do 'our' canyons?
It is my experience that there are enough remote canyons which we can
do if we can face a long trek in. Their nature alone will work to
conserve them.

I can understand gates to prevent 4x4s crashing through the scrub (I
believe this is the reason for the new gates, not any NPWS
anti-canyoner policy). If some canyons end up a little more remote so
be it, but I don't believe there is a need to seek this type of gate
building just for canyons.

It is better to educate those who we come in contact with about the
best ways to protect the canyons. After all what is the reason we want
the canyons protected? 9 times in 10 it is a selfish desire.
It is unfortunate that people have such a huge impact on their
environment, even those of us who may lean towards green (as it were).
We need to consider what different management methods do beyond the
initial intent. Because however land managers decide to conserve
canyons it will in no small degree affect every one of us on this
list. (except, perhaps, those of you who work for NPWS)

I'm not claiming to be right in all of this, but I like to think it is
all well though out. I won't be sad if you argue.

John Chisholm
Re: Access restrictions Flynn Jan 16, 2001
I think the publication of new canyons is a bit of a two edge sword, while
it draws new hordes into perviously pristine areas it also takes some of
the load off the more popular canyons that are really starting to suffer
from canyonings growing popularity.

While I don't support the publication of new canyons (there's more then
enough been published to keep the hordes happy) niether do I think that
canyoning should be the exclusive sport of university, mountaineering and
walking clubs.

People like myself who began canyoning without a bushwalking, climbing or
abseiling background lack the skills needed to simply go out and explore
canyons without the infomation suplied by guide books and therefore guide
books do have their place.

As far as access restrictions go a management plan will become nessasary if
we wish to conserve the beautiful and unique canyon environments. My
sugguestion would be to cicle the access restrictions between canyons. i.e.
A set number canyons would be open to the public for a limited time, 2
years out of ten for example. When the 2 years is up these canyons are
closed to public access, giving them 8 years to recover and another set of
canyons are opened up.

In this way we will alway be able to head out for a canyon trip yet we will
not be subjecting the areas to the constent barrage which threatens to ruin
them.

At 10:50 PM 1/15/01 -0000, you wrote:
> ""<> wrote:
>> This is what I like to see,
>> Not someone complaining about the damage that people do, but
> someone
>> willing to get in there and fix things up.
>>
>> This is waht we should all be teaching those who come through
> canyons
>> with us, bring an empty shopping bag and be willing to fill it with
>> other people's rubbish. It makes it better for the next group and
> you
>> can hope that if they find it looking pristine they'll leave it
> that
>> way.
>>
> Fair enough but i think it's true that some canyons are too popular
> and would benefit from access restrictions.This would help to
> conserve
> their natural values.
> It would also be helpful if guidebook authors refrained from
> publishing new canyons(new to them).There is already a considerable
> number of them published.Does publishing more of them benefit their
> conservation?
>
> Any comments?
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
RE: Access restrictions Roger Butler Jan 16, 2001
Hi all,

> People like myself who began canyoning without a bushwalking,
> climbing or
> abseiling background lack the skills needed to simply go out
> and explore
> canyons without the infomation suplied by guide books and
> therefore guide
> books do have their place.

Canyoning is a multi-disciplinary sport. It _requires_ bushwalking skills.
If you don't have these skills then you shouldn't be leading trips. What if
you lose the track and need to navigate out? What if the guidebook is wrong?

My view on access is that some sort of management is definitely required. I
don't know what though. I agree with previous sentiments that making access
to some canyons difficult is a double-edged sword. It protects these canyons
but moves traffic into others. For some though it's necessary (HITW as an
example).

Roger Butler.
Re: Access restrictions Andrew Valja Jan 16, 2001
Hi,

I think that the canyons need protecting from people
who lack canyoning skills, and have irresponsible attitudes
about the environment. These people (often in large groups) usually
go to the more accessible canyons, which they find listed in
guidebooks.
The simplest way to protect canyons, is to make access more difficult
or restricted (ie. the number of people). To me, a canyons worth is
greater if it is a bit more 'remote' and less frequently visited.
The easier a canyoner is to get to, the more crowded it is, the
more damaged it is, the more rubbish there is, the more accidents
that happen (to the unskilled or ill-equipped).
The notion that some canyon knowledge in the hands of a responsible
'elitist' group, to me seems preferable to that knowledge being
published to the world at large, to be abused by some (or many).

bye....Andrew


--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, Roger Butler <R.Butler@l...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> > People like myself who began canyoning without a bushwalking,
> > climbing or
> > abseiling background lack the skills needed to simply go out
> > and explore
> > canyons without the infomation suplied by guide books and
> > therefore guide
> > books do have their place.
>
> Canyoning is a multi-disciplinary sport. It _requires_ bushwalking
skills.
> If you don't have these skills then you shouldn't be leading trips.
What if
> you lose the track and need to navigate out? What if the guidebook
is wrong?
>
> My view on access is that some sort of management is definitely
required. I
> don't know what though. I agree with previous sentiments that
making access
> to some canyons difficult is a double-edged sword. It protects
these canyons
> but moves traffic into others. For some though it's necessary (HITW
as an
> example).
>
> Roger Butler.
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Access restrictions Isaacs Jan 17, 2001
In my opinion, if people really enjoy the canyons, and really enjoy
canyoning, then they won't mind having to work a bit to get to the canyon.

If people don't enjoy canyoning enough to actually make a little bit of
effort to get to non-crowded canyons, perhaps they should consider a new
weekend activity.

People can get to as many canyons as they really want to.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: Access restrictions Craig Flynn Jan 18, 2001
It's all well and good to say people without these skills shouldn't be
leading canyon trips but this doesn't stop them. I look back on my
first few canyon trips and shudder. It didn't take me long, however,
to realise that if I was to continue to enjoy canyoning wihtout
endangering myself and others I'd better get out and learn a few
thing.

Saddly a lot of people don't come to this realisation.
I was once leading a trip through The Grand Canyon and was just about
to abseil in when a guided group came along. The lead guide took one
look at my rack (a couple of pursik loops, 4 or 5 screwgates, a knife
and a spare descender) and said "thats a bit extreme for this canyon
isn't it?"
Here was a supossed professional with paying novises and he didn't
have a clue what a prusik loop was!!!

All I was sugguesting in my last post was that until poeple build up a
sufficient skill base they'll need to relie on infomation a guide book
provides. I think there has been enough canyons published already to
let people get out and build up there and build up a skill base and
therefore new canyons shouldn't be published.

Not every one is exposed to clubs and organisations which offer
canyoning trips. I started when my younger bother showed us down
through Rocky Creek (He'd been through numourus times with a group of
friends) I didn't even know that bushwalking or mountaineering clubs
existed let-alone they did this sort of thing. Canyoning was something
I enjoyed so I pursued it yet its only now, many years on, that I'm
confident enough in my skills to head out and look for canyons that I
have no prior infomation on.






--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, Roger Butler <R.Butler@l...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> > People like myself who began canyoning without a bushwalking,
> > climbing or
> > abseiling background lack the skills needed to simply go out
> > and explore
> > canyons without the infomation suplied by guide books and
> > therefore guide
> > books do have their place.
>
> Canyoning is a multi-disciplinary sport. It _requires_ bushwalking
skills.
> If you don't have these skills then you shouldn't be leading trips.
What if
> you lose the track and need to navigate out? What if the guidebook
is wrong?
>
> My view on access is that some sort of management is definitely
required. I
> don't know what though. I agree with previous sentiments that making
access
> to some canyons difficult is a double-edged sword. It protects these
canyons
> but moves traffic into others. For some though it's necessary (HITW
as an
> example).
>
> Roger Butler.
Naming your canyon John Chisholm Jan 18, 2001
A simple question,

Many people are against the publication of canyon details, I won't get
into that now. My question for the group is who then controls the
details of who has been where and who did the first decent of a given
canyon?
I know such a database doesn't exist, so how do we know if we are
first and how do we know who has naming rights?
I could ask the group a quest in such as who has been to the canyon at
grid reference *** *** but then I'm publishing details (albeit scant
ones) and I'm then going to face questions from lost of you guys about
the canyon details &tc. So it might just as well be in a book, right?

John Chisholm
Re: [OzCanyons] Naming your canyon Flynn Jan 19, 2001
Good point. I always find it interesting to come home and look up the
history of the canyon I just did.

But, one the other hand, does claiming the first descent and naming rights
of new canyons really matter? The canyon was there a long time before you
ever set eyes on it and will be around for a lot longer. Do you really need
to immortalise yourself by having you name printed in a book?


At 05:03 AM 1/19/01 -0000, you wrote:
> A simple question,
>
> Many people are against the publication of canyon details, I won't get
> into that now. My question for the group is who then controls the
> details of who has been where and who did the first decent of a given
> canyon?
> I know such a database doesn't exist, so how do we know if we are
> first and how do we know who has naming rights?
> I could ask the group a quest in such as who has been to the canyon at
> grid reference *** *** but then I'm publishing details (albeit scant
> ones) and I'm then going to face questions from lost of you guys about
>&tc. So it might just as well be in a book, right?
>
> John Chisholm
>
>
> eGroups Sponsor
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Flynn
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Naming your canyon Lowan Turton Jan 21, 2001
A simple answer.

Call it what you want and keep it secret.

Otherwise contact Dave Noble (either Snr or Jnr) who both have extensive
databases of canyon information.

Lowan Turton

On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, John Chisholm wrote:

> A simple question,
>
> Many people are against the publication of canyon details, I won't get
> into that now. My question for the group is who then controls the
> details of who has been where and who did the first decent of a given
> canyon?
> I know such a database doesn't exist, so how do we know if we are
> first and how do we know who has naming rights?
> I could ask the group a quest in such as who has been to the canyon at
> grid reference *** *** but then I'm publishing details (albeit scant
> ones) and I'm then going to face questions from lost of you guys about
> the canyon details &tc. So it might just as well be in a book, right?
>
> John Chisholm
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Re: Naming your canyon John Chisholm Jan 21, 2001
Thanks for the replies.

Before people get the impression I am an ego maniac who needs
to see his name up in lights, let me say that this was a question of
curiosity.

I'm glad to know that the databases exist, I think this type
of thing is important (or will become so in the future).

John Chisholm

--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, Lowan Turton <turtonl@a...> wrote:
>
> A simple answer.
>
> Call it what you want and keep it secret.
>
> Otherwise contact Dave Noble (either Snr or Jnr) who both have
extensive
> databases of canyon information.
>
> Lowan Turton
>
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, John Chisholm wrote:
>
> > A simple question,
> >
> > Many people are against the publication of canyon details, I
won't get
> > into that now. My question for the group is who then controls the
> > details of who has been where and who did the first decent of a
given
> > canyon?
> > I know such a database doesn't exist, so how do we know if we are
> > first and how do we know who has naming rights?
> > I could ask the group a quest in such as who has been to the
canyon at
> > grid reference *** *** but then I'm publishing details (albeit
scant
> > ones) and I'm then going to face questions from lost of you guys
about
> > the canyon details &tc. So it might just as well be in a book,
right?
> >
> > John Chisholm
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
Re: Naming your canyon Andrew Valja Jan 22, 2001
John,

I think it's only natural to want to know if you are the
first down a new canyon, especially if you manage to find
one of 'classic' quality.
Afterall, finding new canyons is one of the main ojectives
of the top canyoners.
The naming rights are one of the honors, in addition to
the adventure experience of being the first through it.
It takes considerable effort to find new canyons thesedays,
a lot of time & effort has been spent checking dud gullies,
so I think some minor glory is justified.
It seems that sharing the information within a close circle
of knowledgeable canyoning friends is the best option,
rather than going public.
As far as 'ego' goes, from what I have seen some of the top
canyoners are a bit competitive and testosterone driven, but
that's probably what makes them achieve more.

bye....Andrew

--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "John Chisholm" <jchish03@h...> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> Before people get the impression I am an ego maniac who
needs
> to see his name up in lights, let me say that this was a question
of
> curiosity.
>
> I'm glad to know that the databases exist, I think this type
> of thing is important (or will become so in the future).
>
> John Chisholm
>
> --- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, Lowan Turton <turtonl@a...> wrote:
> >
> > A simple answer.
> >
> > Call it what you want and keep it secret.
> >
> > Otherwise contact Dave Noble (either Snr or Jnr) who both have
> extensive
> > databases of canyon information.
> >
> > Lowan Turton
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, John Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > > A simple question,
> > >
> > > Many people are against the publication of canyon details, I
> won't get
> > > into that now. My question for the group is who then controls
the
> > > details of who has been where and who did the first decent of a
> given
> > > canyon?
> > > I know such a database doesn't exist, so how do we know if we
are
> > > first and how do we know who has naming rights?
> > > I could ask the group a quest in such as who has been to the
> canyon at
> > > grid reference *** *** but then I'm publishing details (albeit
> scant
> > > ones) and I'm then going to face questions from lost of you
guys
> about
> > > the canyon details &tc. So it might just as well be in a book,
> right?
> > >
> > > John Chisholm
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
Tips and techniques? alan@objcomp.com.au Jan 22, 2001
Hi Canyoners,

On a tangent to the discussion about naming new canyons, I'd be
interested to hear from some of the experts about the techniques they
use when exploring new canyons.

I've been canyoning for several years now, mostly doing the "well
known" canyons. The obvious advantages are that you pretty much know
what you're up against - and therefore how much rope and other gear to
take - and often the abseil points are already prepared, whether by
slings, logs, chockstones, bolts or whatever.

As I've been descending some of these, I've often wondered how the
first descent party did it. For example, from memory, the second of
the three abseil sequence in Claustral has no natural belay point, but
there is a ring bolt. Did the first party carry bolting gear? Extra
long ropes?

How about exit routes? Do you scout the cliff tops before going in to
make sure you can get out? Do you just keep heading down the creek
until you find a likely gully and try to climb it? Or do you take
camping gear and be prepared to spend a night?

As the list of "well known" canyons that I haven't done diminishes,
I'm interested to try something more adventurous and further afield,
but I'd rather not end up on the evening news!

Regards,

Alan Wilkie
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon Peter Jamieson Jan 22, 2001
How do we define who is first through?
I'm sure the Aboriginal people (see bottom of first abseil in pipeline
canyon, dalpura, Deep pass, coachwood etc for graphic evidence) went into
these nice cool, spiritually invigorating places long before any white
people, then I am sure that the loggers scrambled into quite a few of the
canyons, see rocky creek entrance track, south of the natural bridge on the
mt Cameron rd there is a three room house built in a canyon and I have heard
that there is a black and white pic of a logging exploratory party infront
of some wollemi pines... Following that, many innovative marijuana growers
have ventured into some pretty remote places, although most evidence I find
is within a few kilometers of the road... wasn't that how 4 dope canyon got
its name?
So, how do we define it? I think the only prestige would only go to
(re)naming the canyon according to what tickles the parties fancy & this is
why many people argue about names of canyons etc. gotta go
Lee
Re: Naming your canyon karen Jan 22, 2001
All of the examples you give are not very remote, and fairly
accessible.
Undeniably the aborigines went into some of the canyons,
especially places that had a permanent water supply, or near
pleasant camping sites.
But they would have had no reason (or be equipped) to go
down every canyon slot known, especially in the more rugged, remote,
(and unpleasant) areas.
Loggers obviously didn't go far from the roads they made.
The 3 huts near Mt Cameron are also near roads, on the side of
gullies, and not in real canyons.
All of the dope plantations I've seen are not far from roads
either, and are on ridgetops.
The Wollemi Pine photo is just a rumour. If they did find them, the
loggers would have cut them down!
So surely, from the above, we can conclude that most of the 100's
of now known canyons, which are more remote, have been discovered
in the last few decades, and were not previously visited or named.
The discoverers have the right to name them, in absence of any known
existing name.
Confusion can arise when some canyons are assigned new names when
they are mentioned in a published guide, or in a commercial adventure
company's programme. eg. why was Newnes Canyon called Starlight,
and Tiger Snake called Bottleneck?

regards, Karen.






--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "Peter Jamieson" <localfocus@z...>
wrote:
> How do we define who is first through?
> I'm sure the Aboriginal people (see bottom of first abseil in
pipeline
> canyon, dalpura, Deep pass, coachwood etc for graphic evidence)
went into
> these nice cool, spiritually invigorating places long before any
white
> people, then I am sure that the loggers scrambled into quite a few
of the
> canyons, see rocky creek entrance track, south of the natural
bridge on the
> mt Cameron rd there is a three room house built in a canyon and I
have heard
> that there is a black and white pic of a logging exploratory party
infront
> of some wollemi pines... Following that, many innovative marijuana
growers
> have ventured into some pretty remote places, although most
evidence I find
> is within a few kilometers of the road... wasn't that how 4 dope
canyon got
> its name?
> So, how do we define it? I think the only prestige would only go to
> (re)naming the canyon according to what tickles the parties fancy &
this is
> why many people argue about names of canyons etc. gotta go
> Lee
Gloworms Research Lee Etherington Jan 22, 2001
Went out last week with Dr David Merrit and his assistant Anthony
O'Tolle studying gloworms. David is an entomologist from the Uni of
Qld. He is studying the recreational impacts on gloworms, studying
them for cancer research and also identifying what species we have in
the blue mountains. He believes that the 'bush' gloworms are
different to the tunnel and cave gloworms. Basically he collected
several worms and is taking them back to Qld to grow them out to
adults in his lab. we also took temperature, humidity and other
readings at the sites. The species can only correctly be identified
when they are adults. We went to Newnes tunnel and to a site at
kurrajong Heights where i work. All work was done with a research
license from the npws. we had an interesting day, especially when the
key was locked in the boot of a brand new falcon... luckily another
research vehicle had a satelite phone and in only 4 hours we were on
our way again thanks to an understandably irate nrma bloke.
The gloworms are very primitave flys that originally evolved to eat
mushrooms. The gloworms some how evolved to be carniverous, and this
has happenned in several locations throughout the world independantly.
After the blue mountains, david headed down to victoria and has
probably found a new species in the snowy mountains. then he went to
tasmania and finally to the atherton tablelands behind cairns.
Regarding the cancer research, the genes from the gloworm are spliced
onto cells which will turn cancerous. In a nutshell when the cells
turn cancerous they start to glow like a gloworm... Glow-Rats!
if anyone wants more info, just email me.
Regards,
Lee
Re: Naming your canyon Craig Flynn Jan 23, 2001
A few years ago my uncle told me that his grandfather worked as a
early surveyer in Nenwes forest and Wolgan valley areas and often told
of the wonderous places he come across, including spectacular canyon
formations. As a kid he recalls his grandfather taking him out on
horse riding trips to show him some of these wonders.

He claims that one such trip involved riding the entire length of
Rocky creek and making verious side trips into what he refered to as
"Very narrow gullies". While he has been known to alter the truth a
bit his accurate description of the start of Rocky creek canyon left
me with little doubt that he had been there.

Another old bloke who was a keen 4WDer and bushwalker told me of
stumbling across a strange log in a "tight ravine". He said that the
thing that drew his attention to it was the rough bark that was unlike
anything he had seen before or since and had come to wonder if this
may have been from a Wollemi pine.

So from this I believe that many canyons had been visited or at least
spotted before the realatively rescent rush of canyon exploration.







--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "karen " <lawsonk@m...> wrote:
> All of the examples you give are not very remote, and fairly
> accessible.
> Undeniably the aborigines went into some of the canyons,
> especially places that had a permanent water supply, or near
> pleasant camping sites.
> But they would have had no reason (or be equipped) to go
> down every canyon slot known, especially in the more rugged, remote,
> (and unpleasant) areas.
> Loggers obviously didn't go far from the roads they made.
> The 3 huts near Mt Cameron are also near roads, on the side of
> gullies, and not in real canyons.
> All of the dope plantations I've seen are not far from roads
> either, and are on ridgetops.
> The Wollemi Pine photo is just a rumour. If they did find them, the
> loggers would have cut them down!
> So surely, from the above, we can conclude that most of the 100's
> of now known canyons, which are more remote, have been discovered
> in the last few decades, and were not previously visited or named.
> The discoverers have the right to name them, in absence of any known
> existing name.
> Confusion can arise when some canyons are assigned new names when
> they are mentioned in a published guide, or in a commercial
adventure
> company's programme. eg. why was Newnes Canyon called Starlight,
> and Tiger Snake called Bottleneck?
>
> regards, Karen.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "Peter Jamieson" <localfocus@z...>
> wrote:
> > How do we define who is first through?
> > I'm sure the Aboriginal people (see bottom of first abseil in
> pipeline
> > canyon, dalpura, Deep pass, coachwood etc for graphic evidence)
> went into
> > these nice cool, spiritually invigorating places long before any
> white
> > people, then I am sure that the loggers scrambled into quite a few
> of the
> > canyons, see rocky creek entrance track, south of the natural
> bridge on the
> > mt Cameron rd there is a three room house built in a canyon and I
> have heard
> > that there is a black and white pic of a logging exploratory party
> infront
> > of some wollemi pines... Following that, many innovative marijuana
> growers
> > have ventured into some pretty remote places, although most
> evidence I find
> > is within a few kilometers of the road... wasn't that how 4 dope
> canyon got
> > its name?
> > So, how do we define it? I think the only prestige would only go
to
> > (re)naming the canyon according to what tickles the parties fancy
&
> this is
> > why many people argue about names of canyons etc. gotta go
> > Lee
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon Isaacs Jan 23, 2001
----- Original Message -----
From: "karen " <lawsonk@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2001 3:22
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon


> All of the examples you give are not very remote, and fairly
> accessible.
> Undeniably the aborigines went into some of the canyons,
> especially places that had a permanent water supply, or near
> pleasant camping sites.
> But they would have had no reason (or be equipped) to go
> down every canyon slot known, especially in the more rugged, remote,
> (and unpleasant) areas.
Remote from what? From our modern cities?

And "unpleasant" areas? Such as?

Cheers,
Mitchell

PS Claustral is not difficult to do without bolts. I'll let you figure out
how.
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon Matthew Black Jan 23, 2001
Peoples,

I heard about a lady bushranger who hid out in canyons, I think in the
Northern Wollemi, e.g. Glen Davis
Apparently she and her gang were cornered and after a shoot out were finally
captured and hung by the neck untill they cheered up(the blokes that is). I
think she was billeted at his majestys pleasure for the term of her natural
life.

So lots of white fellas / sheilas have been there too.

Did Hole in the Wall (should be renamed to 'long bloody walk canyon') brused
both heels jumping. Then decided to complete the day with a stroll through
Birrabang (who said half day, 2hrs return more like it)

Mat Black

P.S. I reckon 50m is the answer. Then you don't have the pain in the butt
problem of detaching decenders while treading water.


----- Original Message -----
From: Isaacs <pisaacsm@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "karen " <lawsonk@...>
> To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2001 3:22
> Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon
>
>
> > All of the examples you give are not very remote, and fairly
> > accessible.
> > Undeniably the aborigines went into some of the canyons,
> > especially places that had a permanent water supply, or near
> > pleasant camping sites.
> > But they would have had no reason (or be equipped) to go
> > down every canyon slot known, especially in the more rugged, remote,
> > (and unpleasant) areas.
> Remote from what? From our modern cities?
>
> And "unpleasant" areas? Such as?
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell
>
> PS Claustral is not difficult to do without bolts. I'll let you figure out
> how.
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Re: Naming your canyon d.lockwood@cchs.usyd.edu.au Jan 23, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "Craig Flynn" <cflynn@l...> wrote:
> A few years ago my uncle told me that his grandfather worked as a
> early surveyer in Nenwes forest and Wolgan valley areas and often
told
> of the wonderous places he come across, including spectacular
canyon
> formations. As a kid he recalls his grandfather taking him out on
> horse riding trips to show him some of these wonders.
>
> He claims that one such trip involved riding the entire length of
> Rocky creek and making verious side trips into what he refered to
as
> "Very narrow gullies". While he has been known to alter the truth a
> bit his accurate description of the start of Rocky creek canyon
left
> me with little doubt that he had been there.
>
> Another old bloke who was a keen 4WDer and bushwalker told me of
> stumbling across a strange log in a "tight ravine". He said that
the
> thing that drew his attention to it was the rough bark that was
unlike
> anything he had seen before or since and had come to wonder if this
> may have been from a Wollemi pine.
>
> So from this I believe that many canyons had been visited or at
least
> spotted before the realatively rescent rush of canyon exploration.

Can you clarify what you mean by"recent"?

Dave
Re: Naming your canyon karen Jan 23, 2001
some examples:
'remote'- from roads/tracks, and places where the aborigines would
rather have stayed, not just our modern cities. The aborigines would
have lived in the better areas available to them. eg near rivers,
grassy clearings, etc. where the wildlife would also have been more
abundant.
'unpleasant areas'- such as long, hot, dry ridges covered in
thick scrub; and gullies overgrown with swordgrass, etc.,
without good shelter or permanent water.
Why would the aborigines (or white men) go there, when there
were better places to go? Unless they passed through on the way
to somewhere else.
Just because they went along the ridges, or down to waterholes,
doesn't mean that they went through every canyon. The same applies
to loggers, bushrangers, miners, surveyors, etc.

bye, Karen
--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "Isaacs" <pisaacsm@o...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "karen " <lawsonk@m...>
> To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2001 3:22
> Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon
>
>
> > All of the examples you give are not very remote, and fairly
> > accessible.
> > Undeniably the aborigines went into some of the canyons,
> > especially places that had a permanent water supply, or near
> > pleasant camping sites.
> > But they would have had no reason (or be equipped) to go
> > down every canyon slot known, especially in the more rugged,
remote,
> > (and unpleasant) areas.
> Remote from what? From our modern cities?
>
> And "unpleasant" areas? Such as?
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell
>
> PS Claustral is not difficult to do without bolts. I'll let you
figure out
> how.
Re: Tips and techniques? Andrew Valja Jan 23, 2001
Hi Alan,

There actually used to be a tree stump at the 2nd drop at Claustral,
till it was washed away in the early 90's. Most canyoners don't carry
bolt gear with them, and many don't approve of placing unnatural
anchors.
Re exits: all of the senarios you mentioned are options, except
carrying camping gear, but you should have some dry clothes/matches/
food in case you get stuck overnight.
Sometimes you are in the vicinity of known exits which you can head
to if you don't find another earlier way out.
If you or some of your party can rockclimb it's a big help in getting
out of the creeks.
Exploring is a calculated risk, which can be minimised by use of the
right techniques and equipment.
You should have skills in navigation(a GPS makes this easier),
abseiling, rope/anchor placement, knots, prussicking, etc.
How much rope to take is guesswork, but the more you have the safer.
You should also have slings, ascenders, chocks.
When you go down an unknown slot, the number and height of the drops,
and anchor points are unknown. Will the rope be high enough for the
next drop, and will there be something to attach it to?
There is always the danger of the rope getting stuck when you pull it
down, especially in cracks or at edges of chockstones.
When going through a new slot you can pull down the rope and hope for
the best(risky), or check out what's ahead after a drop, before you
pull the rope down. Check if there's an escape route and how high the
next drop is. If there's a problem you can still get out, up the side
or back up the rope. If you have several ropes, you can leave more
than one in place.
There is safety in numbers, especially if your party is experienced.
The more people you have, the more gear you can take. eg. more ropes.

bye....Andrew







--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, alan@o... wrote:
> Hi Canyoners,
>
> On a tangent to the discussion about naming new canyons, I'd be
> interested to hear from some of the experts about the techniques
they
> use when exploring new canyons.
>
> I've been canyoning for several years now, mostly doing the "well
> known" canyons. The obvious advantages are that you pretty much
know
> what you're up against - and therefore how much rope and other gear
to
> take - and often the abseil points are already prepared, whether by
> slings, logs, chockstones, bolts or whatever.
>
> As I've been descending some of these, I've often wondered how the
> first descent party did it. For example, from memory, the second
of
> the three abseil sequence in Claustral has no natural belay point,
but
> there is a ring bolt. Did the first party carry bolting gear?
Extra
> long ropes?
>
> How about exit routes? Do you scout the cliff tops before going in
to
> make sure you can get out? Do you just keep heading down the creek
> until you find a likely gully and try to climb it? Or do you take
> camping gear and be prepared to spend a night?
>
> As the list of "well known" canyons that I haven't done diminishes,
> I'm interested to try something more adventurous and further
afield,
> but I'd rather not end up on the evening news!
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan Wilkie
Tips and techniques - bolting John Chisholm Jan 23, 2001
On the question of bolting, as raised be some previous posts, I'm not
a big fan of bolting. For emergency exits on exploratory canyons I
bring a small climbing rack: Nuts, Hexs and Pitons, quickdraws and a
dynamic rope (about a 25mtr). I feel much better using something I can
remove. But there have been times that being able to place a bolt has
seemed tempting. As yet I haven't and I think I'll keep it that way. I
have nothing against sport climbing and I have done some bolting for
lower-offs on private property. In a canyon however the style of
bolting has to change.

I know that glue in anchors are better in sandstone and that most
expansion bolts clearly state they shouldn't be used in soft
sandstone. The problem is I don't want to wait 36hrs for my glue in
bolt to set - and I don't want to weaken the bolt for future abseilers
by using it before the glue has fully cured.

This leads me to a question, how soft is the sandstone in Blue
Mountains canyons? Too soft for a petzl long life (for example) or
does the type of rock mean that we can place expansion bolts if we are
careful about where (not to close to edges etc.). The only other
option is the old hammered in carrot and I know that these seem to be
going out of style with climbers questioning their longevity. I assume
their life span would be shorter in a canyon due to the frequent
floods.

So if you were going to bolt in a canyon, what would you use and why?
Please don't feel that your opinion on methods means you approve of
bolting canyons, as I mentioned I'm not a fan of bolts.

John Chisholm
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon Isaacs Jan 24, 2001
> 'remote'- from roads/tracks, and places where the aborigines would
> rather have stayed, not just our modern cities. The aborigines would
> have lived in the better areas available to them. eg near rivers,
> grassy clearings, etc. where the wildlife would also have been more
> abundant.
There are lots of areas in our "remote wilderness" that Aboriginals used to
frequent.

> 'unpleasant areas'- such as long, hot, dry ridges covered in
> thick scrub; and gullies overgrown with swordgrass, etc.,
> without good shelter or permanent water.
I don't find these areas necessarily unpleasant, and I know a lot of people
who feel similarly. Just because you find an area unpleasant doesn't mean
that everybody does. One of the reasons I like these "unpleasant" areas is
because less people tend to go there. I don't expect my time in the bush to
be a walk in the park.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: [OzCanyons] Tips and techniques - bolting Poco Loco Adventures Jan 24, 2001
It seems that the "next generation" of glues for chemical anchors might be
very interesting for us impatient types: it comes in glass tubes (no messing
around with 2-component glues and left-overs) and in two sizes, for holes 12
mm in dia and for 14 mm dia.
No need to mix the contents, just insert it, break and put in the anchor.
Can be used in wet environment.
Now the best: drying time at 10 °C is 20 min., at 20 °C only 10 min.
This sounds a perfectly workable delay to me.
I'm going to order a box of these and if you're interested can let you know
the brand if they do as advertised.
In the meantime it might be usefull to check on big hardware stores,
normally they carry these things in different brands and sizes.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: John Chisholm <jchish03@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 2:36 AM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Tips and techniques - bolting


> On the question of bolting, as raised be some previous posts, I'm not
> a big fan of bolting. For emergency exits on exploratory canyons I
> bring a small climbing rack: Nuts, Hexs and Pitons, quickdraws and a
> dynamic rope (about a 25mtr). I feel much better using something I can
> remove. But there have been times that being able to place a bolt has
> seemed tempting. As yet I haven't and I think I'll keep it that way. I
> have nothing against sport climbing and I have done some bolting for
> lower-offs on private property. In a canyon however the style of
> bolting has to change.
>
> I know that glue in anchors are better in sandstone and that most
> expansion bolts clearly state they shouldn't be used in soft
> sandstone. The problem is I don't want to wait 36hrs for my glue in
> bolt to set - and I don't want to weaken the bolt for future abseilers
> by using it before the glue has fully cured.
>
> This leads me to a question, how soft is the sandstone in Blue
> Mountains canyons? Too soft for a petzl long life (for example) or
> does the type of rock mean that we can place expansion bolts if we are
> careful about where (not to close to edges etc.). The only other
> option is the old hammered in carrot and I know that these seem to be
> going out of style with climbers questioning their longevity. I assume
> their life span would be shorter in a canyon due to the frequent
> floods.
>
> So if you were going to bolt in a canyon, what would you use and why?
> Please don't feel that your opinion on methods means you approve of
> bolting canyons, as I mentioned I'm not a fan of bolts.
>
> John Chisholm
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Tips and techniques - bolting canyonz Jan 24, 2001
Koen

I like the idea of a fast-setting glue cartridge, but I think it's only suitable
for a certain length of holes. If you need deeper holes for soft rock, you might
not have enough glue with one cartridge, and too much with 2, right? i've used
epoxy Epcon glue with a gun, and, well, I glue one day, abseil off the old
anchors, and fix the new belay the next day and abseil off it. Time consuming,
granted, but safe!

Julien Senamaud - CANYONZ
Re: Naming your canyon lawsonk@minerals.nsw.gov.au Jan 24, 2001
The point I was trying to make is that most non-canyoners would
find some places unpleasant, and so would not have gone there,
or had any reason to.
I agree that canyoners find a certain attraction to these areas,
but I would not say that it is always totally enjoyable.
I have been going through these areas to get to remote canyons on
almost a weekly basis for many years (mostly off-track), so I do have
some experience.
None of the trips that I do are 'a walk in the park'.

bye, Karen



> I don't find these areas necessarily unpleasant, and I know a lot
of people
> who feel similarly. Just because you find an area unpleasant
doesn't mean
> that everybody does. One of the reasons I like these "unpleasant"
areas is
> because less people tend to go there. I don't expect my time in the
bush to
> be a walk in the park.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell
Re: [OzCanyons] Tips and techniques - bolting Poco Loco Adventures Jan 24, 2001
Hi Julien,

you've got me confused a bit. For the cartridges I use now I have to drill a
12 mm hole 90 mm deep. The cartridge itself is 87 mm by 10,4, filled up to
aroung 60 mm. When putting in a 10 mm broche, the glue always comes spilling
out a bit. I have to wipe it off with a rag to avoid an ugly "drip".
The brand I use now is called "UPAT" (German), drying time at 20 °C is 20
min, between O and 10 °C it's 1 hour, when wet double time.
The cartridge sizes go from 8 mm on 80 mm up to 30 mm on 280 mm !
How deep do you drill your holes anyway, all the way back to Europe ?
Homesick ?

Drawback to these cartridges is the time it takes to set, a bit too long for
my taste and it's two-components. You have to be very carefull when putting
the bolt (no broche) in, the manual explicitly says you have to do this with
a power drill in order to mix the contents well.
The newer ones (I don't know the brand(s) yet) have only one component, much
faster drying times and you can put in a broche with a hammer if you like.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: canyonz <info@...>
To: <OzCanyons@egroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Tips and techniques - bolting


> Koen
>
> I like the idea of a fast-setting glue cartridge, but I think it's only
suitable
> for a certain length of holes. If you need deeper holes for soft rock, you
might
> not have enough glue with one cartridge, and too much with 2, right? i've
used
> epoxy Epcon glue with a gun, and, well, I glue one day, abseil off the old
> anchors, and fix the new belay the next day and abseil off it. Time
consuming,
> granted, but safe!
>
> Julien Senamaud - CANYONZ
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
[OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon Cathi Humphrey-Hood Jan 24, 2001
Really, people just like to name things. It seems to be a human drive.

People seem to relate better to names than to grid-reference numbers,
especially when the names become known to a particular group to which a
sense of belonging can be enhanced by becoming familiar with them. Naming
canyons creates a canyoner's language. Providing the name that sticks (not
necessarily being the discoverer) would bring a sense of contributing to the
language, and I think that would feel pretty good to most people. Saying "I
was in a tight dark hole at grid reference xxxyyy" would send most of us
scurrying for our map folder, but we can rattle off "Serendipity",
"Pipeline", "Rocky Creek" or "Kanangra Main" and not only do we know exactly
where they are, but what is involved in getting there (and yes, I guess we
have the guidebook to thank for that). The names have a lot of meaning
attached to them. "Claustral" conjures up entirely different images to
"Dione Dell".

I don't feel that publishing names and grid references to previously
unpublished canyons would cause too many problems, providing that is all
that is published (that is, no information on what the place looks like or
what is in it or how to get there). Lots of out-of-the-way places have
names, you would simply be naming a creek in the wilderness.

Cheers,
Cathi

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Valja [mailto:valjaa@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 23 January 2001 9:07
To: OzCanyons@egroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Naming your canyon


John,

I think it's only natural to want to know if you are the
first down a new canyon, especially if you manage to find
one of 'classic' quality.
Afterall, finding new canyons is one of the main ojectives
of the top canyoners.
The naming rights are one of the honors, in addition to
the adventure experience of being the first through it.
It takes considerable effort to find new canyons thesedays,
a lot of time & effort has been spent checking dud gullies,
so I think some minor glory is justified.
It seems that sharing the information within a close circle
of knowledgeable canyoning friends is the best option,
rather than going public.
As far as 'ego' goes, from what I have seen some of the top
canyoners are a bit competitive and testosterone driven, but
that's probably what makes them achieve more.

bye....Andrew

--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "John Chisholm" <jchish03@h...> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies.
>
> Before people get the impression I am an ego maniac who
needs
> to see his name up in lights, let me say that this was a question
of
> curiosity.
>
> I'm glad to know that the databases exist, I think this type
> of thing is important (or will become so in the future).
>
> John Chisholm
>
> --- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, Lowan Turton <turtonl@a...> wrote:
> >
> > A simple answer.
> >
> > Call it what you want and keep it secret.
> >
> > Otherwise contact Dave Noble (either Snr or Jnr) who both have
> extensive
> > databases of canyon information.
> >
> > Lowan Turton
> >
> > On Fri, 19 Jan 2001, John Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > > A simple question,
> > >
> > > Many people are against the publication of canyon details, I
> won't get
> > > into that now. My question for the group is who then controls
the
> > > details of who has been where and who did the first decent of a
> given
> > > canyon?
> > > I know such a database doesn't exist, so how do we know if we
are
> > > first and how do we know who has naming rights?
> > > I could ask the group a quest in such as who has been to the
> canyon at
> > > grid reference *** *** but then I'm publishing details (albeit
> scant
> > > ones) and I'm then going to face questions from lost of you
guys
> about
> > > the canyon details &tc. So it might just as well be in a book,
> right?
> > >
> > > John Chisholm
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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Tips and techniques - bolting canyonz Jan 25, 2001
Hi Koen

Well, even though I'm not a cave, I like deep holes, especially when the rock I
have at my disposal is not the best quality. So I've drilled holes that were
sometimes 150 or 200 mm deep, and I inserted a 12 mm wide, 200 mm long stainless
steel threaded rod. No fuss, and if it's too long I chop it with a hacksaw. It
feels very safe...

Julien
Re: Tips and techniques - bolting Rich Carlson Jan 25, 2001
John,

On the Canyons Group, we are fortunate to have among our members the
technical rep for Petzl USA, Hank Moon. Your question regarding Petzl
Long-Life Bolts came up on our group recently. Hank's answer was as
follows:

"This bolt is not recommended for use in soft rock, especially soft
sandstone. The shaft is only 1.85" long [roughly 4.5 cm]. Petzl says
it's ok for "soft limestone" with a compressive strength of at least 50
MPa, or 7250 psi (think modern sidewalk concrete). Not sure exactly
where southwestern sandstone falls on the scale, but it's usually much
softer than concrete."

Rich
Re: Canyoning get together rcwild@wildernessmail.net Jan 26, 2001
I stumbled upon a good deal on airfare to Sydney and could not
resist. I booked a flight that arrives on the 24th of February and
will be staying until March 15th. I hope the offers to show me some Oz
Canyons are still good. Any chance of organizing the get together we
discussed during this period? I will be happy to bring slides, etc.

Rich
Re: Canyoning get together localfocus@zeta.org.au Jan 26, 2001
Excellent Rich!
It'll be great to see You, I'm not sure what we will be able to pull
together in such little time but i'm sure we can organise something.
It would be wonderful if you could bring some slides of US and any
other canyons that you have photographed. with regards to a date for
an organised get together, either march 2 3 4 or around the 10, 11th.
how does this fit with other list members? Who has ideas as to topics
for discussion, speakers, field trips etc...
Looking forward to pulling something together for all of us.
Lee

--- In OzCanyons@y..., rcwild@w... wrote:
> I stumbled upon a good deal on airfare to Sydney and could not
> resist. I booked a flight that arrives on the 24th of February and
> will be staying until March 15th. I hope the offers to show me some
Oz
> Canyons are still good. Any chance of organizing the get together we
> discussed during this period? I will be happy to bring slides, etc.
>
> Rich
Change to Yahoo Groups localfocus@zeta.org.au Jan 26, 2001
Bit of a surprise, to find that i had to resubscribe to the list as
you all have had to. Hope that did not cause too much confusion or
inconvenience, i had no warning either. lets just hope that yahoo
continues as good a service as egroups has.
I'm Glad you signed back up!
Regards,
lee
accidents cflynn@lisp.com.au Jan 27, 2001
There was a bit of drama in Twister (AKA as Sheep Dip to some)canyon
today, Sun 28/1/01.

Towards the end of the canyon we came a across a group with an
injured member. He had hit his leg on a rock on one of the jump ins
hurting his knee. the group had managed to splint the knee and was
lowering him down the jumps with a rope, Point 1: Always carry a
safety rope.

We helped get him down the last drop by using a loop of tube tape to
rig up a make shift harness and wraping the rope around a tree to
lower him down. Point 2: a piece of tape about 3m long tied in a loop
can be used to from a quick harness to get you out of trouble. Wrap
the loop around your back under your shoulders and then pull one loop
down between you leg to form leg loops. It's uncomfortable but works
well in a pinch.

There was another group, this one a guided tour, in an injured
member stuck on the ledge below the last jump. Apparently the guys
foot sliped as he jumped and he twisted around hiting his back across
the rocks at the side of the pool as he landed.
I don't know about you guys but I always sit and slide off that jump
especially if I've got bumblies with me, there's not much room for
error.

Anyway it looked like the poor bloke may of had spinal injuries. Since
one of our party members was a nurse she volunteered to stay with the
guy until help arrived, good on you Ros.

Another of our group is in Lithgow VRA so we headed back to town so he
could meet up with the rest of the squad and lead them straight back
in.

As yet their're still not back so I'll let you know how they got on
when I know more. (The weather doesn't look good for a chopper rescue
so it could be a long haul out)

P.S. the first guy with the busted knee was slowly making his way out
on foot as we left.
Re: Canyoning get together Adam Bramwell Jan 28, 2001
Rich,

Make sure when you come to Oz you bring a couple of copies of your
"Canyoneering Techniques" book with you. It is complete now, isn't
it? ;)

re: the get-together,

When going out for a weekend, I always try to do the most important
trip on the first day, in case of rain. Following on from this
philosophy, have the get-together on the first weekend - the
24/25th...

Can anyone who lives in the mountains provide a meeting room for a
slide show, or one could be hired / held outdoors / in Mt Vic flicks?

Keep posting ideas for the get-together.

Adam


__________________________________________________________________
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RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning get together Lee Etherington Jan 28, 2001
I should be able to provide a venue, my business is based on a 100 acre
property (formerly the kurrajong heights retreat) at kurrajong heights. We
are surrounded by the blue mountains national park, Wollemi is over the
road. 15 minutes to the start of canyon country. We run regular slide shows
here in a largeish social room with central fireplace etc. budget accom and
possibly camping may be available. The problem may be with the owners, I
will have to talk with them to try to get permission for such an event. I
will keep everyone posted as details come to hand.
Regards,

Lee Etherington
Re: [OzCanyons] accidents Flynn Jan 29, 2001
Just a quick update on the accidents in Twister.

The guy with the hurt knee managed to get to the car park where he was
checked over by the ambos waiting for the rescue squad. They discovered
that his knee had been cut right to the tendon and promptly put him in the
back and carted him to the hospital.

The other guy was able to wriggle his toes but was in heaps of pain so they
suspected he had internal injuries, possibly a ruptured spleen.
His rescue was a slow and complicated proccess, the injury occurring around
noon they got him up to the Ambos about 7pm.

The rescue was a combined effort involving police rescue and Lithgow VRA
with a squad of rural Firies slowing up in time to help carry the stretcher
up the hill. I think the newly formed Climbers Rescue Group were also at
the scene.

All teams worked well together to carry out the rescue with minimum fuss
and should be congratulated on a fantastic job







At 06:25 AM 1/28/01 -0000, you wrote:
> There was a bit of drama in Twister (AKA as Sheep Dip to some)canyon
> today, Sun 28/1/01.
>
> Towards the end of the canyon we came a across a group with an
> injured member. He had hit his leg on a rock on one of the jump ins
> hurting his knee. the group had managed to splint the knee and was
> lowering him down the jumps with a rope, Point 1: Always carry a
> safety rope.
>
> We helped get him down the last drop by using a loop of tube tape to
> rig up a make shift harness and wraping the rope around a tree to
> lower him down. Point 2: a piece of tape about 3m long tied in a loop
> can be used to from a quick harness to get you out of trouble. Wrap
> the loop around your back under your shoulders and then pull one loop
> down between you leg to form leg loops. It's uncomfortable but works
> well in a pinch.
>
> There was another group, this one a guided tour, in an injured
> member stuck on the ledge below the last jump. Apparently the guys
> foot sliped as he jumped and he twisted around hiting his back across
> the rocks at the side of the pool as he landed.
> I don't know about you guys but I always sit and slide off that jump
> especially if I've got bumblies with me, there's not much room for
> error.
>
> Anyway it looked like the poor bloke may of had spinal injuries. Since
> one of our party members was a nurse she volunteered to stay with the
> guy until help arrived, good on you Ros.
>
> Another of our group is in Lithgow VRA so we headed back to town so he
> could meet up with the rest of the squad and lead them straight back
> in.
>
> As yet their're still not back so I'll let you know how they got on
> when I know more. (The weather doesn't look good for a chopper rescue
> so it could be a long haul out)
>
> P.S. the first guy with the busted knee was slowly making his way out
> on foot as we left.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor www. .com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Flynn
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Hole In The Wall Tunnel David Noble Jan 29, 2001
A few weeks back there was some questions about the tunnel.

It is very easy to climb over the tunnel (I normally do the canyon as a
two day trip that links together a number of canyons in the area - so
have a bigger pack that I don't want to take through the squeeze)

No abseils of tricky climbs are needed. It is also easy to climb down
the first abseil and small drops above the tunnel by traversing on the
left above the abseil and scrambling down to the top of the tunnel.

For me the highlight of the canyon is the remarkable top constriction.

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: Canyoning get together rcwild@wildernessmail.net Jan 29, 2001
Adam,

One of the reasons for my visit is to determine if there will be a
market for my book in Australia. Perhaps you Ozzies are using such
advanced techniques that ours will bore you. ;-)

The primary reason for my visit, of course, is the canyoning. But
this will be my first visit to Oz, so I would like to do a few other
things as well. I plan to spend my last week in New Zealand with
Julien. Maybe I should see Ayers Rock. Then there is Kakadu. And the
canyons of the Pilbara. And the Australian Alps. And ... Too much to
do and never enough time. I could use some suggestions for an
itinerary. With 3 to 5 days between my stay in the Blue Mountains and
my departure for New Zealand, what should I do? I found flights from
Sydney to Alice Springs and Darwin. Which would be a better choice?
Would there be time to do both? Or is there something better to do? I
prefer the outdoors, so hanging around Sydney does not appeal to me.
Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.

If I spend my first 8-10 days in the Blue Mountains, will it be
possible to do at least 5 or 6 canyons? I would like to do a couple
of "classics". I have heard a lot about Claustral. I would also like
to do one or two that you consider very technical and, if possible, I
would like to tag along on one or two trips with guides to observe
your guiding techniques. Hope I am not asking too much.

When we do slide shows here, we usually contact a local retailer to
provide the space and help with promotion by putting up posters and
distributing flyers. Were you thinking of something public or
inviting just a close circle of friends? Most of my slides are from
Arizona, Utah and Mexico, but I also have some from Austria, Italy
and France. I also have some that will be the photographs of
techniques for my book. I will bring all of them if you like. Perhaps
it would be good to set aside some time somewhere dry for a technique
clinic - you show me yours and I'll show you mine.

Unfortunately, Stefan Hofmann of the CEC will not be able to join us,
but he asked me to tell everyone "hello".

Rich
re: Rich's itinerary jchish03@hotmail.com Jan 29, 2001
It's a damn big country and in your time frame my recommendation is
try to avoid any extra time on a plane or a train and concentrate on
what you can see around the area you'll be visiting. There is a hell
of a lot to see within driving distance of Sydney and the blue
mountains.
My recommendation would be Jenolan Caves, the Warrambungles, lightning
ridge and probably a drive up to the Dorrigo and Ebor area. Anywhere
you need to fly to or catch a train takes time away from seeing the
place and while I don't know that you'll be back I think it is
probable you'll want to return (I'm an expat Pom myself and I wouldn't
go back). So it makes sense to see the further flung parts of the
country when you have more time. Look at an atlas and consider the
size of Australia, it's a big place.

Not everyone will agree with me but I'm more intelligent than those
who might argue. OK perhaps not, so to compensate for my geographical
bias, my recommendation for any American deciding on their itinerary
is to read Bill Bryson's book Down Under. Published in 2000 but I
don't remember by whom.

Looking forward to seeing you out here,
John Chisholm
Re: Canyoning get together Adam Bramwell Jan 30, 2001
Hi all,

The option of public or private slide show really depends on the venue
- what do you think Lee?

I'm sure I could rustle up a dozen or so people from our club in
Newcastle, and others could do the same with their friends and
canyoning buddies. Having a larger scale social occasion that brings
a few groups together wouldn't be a bad thing, especially since the
rocksports community is missing out on Escalade this year (bugger!).

This would increase the exposure of Rich's canyoning techniques book.
It is timely to have an "instructional guidebook" to canyoning
activities, given its' popularity. I'll certainly order a copy of the
book, even if it has to be mail-ordered in from the US. But the real
benefit of the book is having it in the shops, available for people
when they first start out.

Adam




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Rich's itinerary Adam Bramwell Jan 30, 2001
Rich,

Our canyons are generally quite short, due to the complex nature of
the terrain. Generally half the time of the trip is spend navigating
outside of the canyon. Averaging a canyon a day would be quite
leisurely over the course of a week. Except if you're using a compass
from the northern hemisphere!

As David Noble hinted at, the more experienced parties increasingly
combine several canyons in the same area, for example Serendipity /
Whungee Wheengee / Waterfall of Moss in the Wollangambe area, and
Sheep Dip / Rocky Creek etc.

And I agree with the supremely intelligent yet modest John Chisolm ;-)
about rushing over to the the NT - there's plenty in NSW. But if you
have to go (in the name of research, presumably), go Kakadu / Darwin.

Cheers,
Adam


__________________________________________________________________
Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au
The First BiAnnual Australian Canyoning Festival jchish03@hotmail.com Jan 30, 2001
If we are looking for a good sized get together I could get a good
number of people interested,
but perhaps on the short notice we have it would be better to be a
little modest in our aims?
No point making this the next big event on the world calander.
My thought would be that I'd enjoy getting together with a few like
minded people and enjoying the physical equivelent of the info
transfer this list provides.

John Chisholm
RE: [OzCanyons] The First BiAnnual Australian Canyoning Festival Lee Etherington Jan 30, 2001
Inaugural Blue Mountains Canyoning Convention...???
Yes, I agree, it is fairly short notice, still trying to secure a good venue
at kurrajong heights. If not we can definitely get the old gaol at newness
plateau for a very good rate. Accom should be available at around $25 a
night in cabins at kurrajong heights which has a little more luxury (heated
pool, spa, sauna etc to return to) and around $10 or so at newnes. I may be
able to get some sponsorship from some outdoor stores/ our local council
here to help cover organizing costs. If people can start spreading the word
that would be great.
Have to go now, keep sending ideas folks.
Regards,
Lee
Re: [OzCanyons] The First BiAnnual Australian Canyoning Festival james insane Jan 31, 2001
heya john
im sure us lot over here would be interested in the
idea of going out to get more experince etc
James


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Urgent Action Needed to Protect Canyons David Noble Jan 31, 2001
Hello all

I have been away for the past month and am only just catching up with
what has been happening. Urgent action in the form of letters and
submissions is needed to protect a very beautiful part of the Blue
Mountains that contains a number of small sandstone canyons. THIS AREA
IS THREATED BY LONGWALL COAL MINING. If the mining goes ahead (or goes
ahead without adequate safeguards) then the canyons are threatened by
cliff collapse.

The area involved is near Clarence. The canyons are in the headwaters of
the Wollangambe Creek (eg Billabong Canyon near Gooches crater). Other
nearby canyons in Dumbano Creek, just outside the mining area could also
be damaged.

I have placed some information about the problem and a map on my
canyoning news page at

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/canyoningnews.html

Please act as a matter of urgency.

Thanks,

Dave Noble
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Clarence Colliery extensions Andrew Valja Jan 31, 2001
Hi canyoners,

A few years ago, I was horrified when numerous new roads were
cut through the bush adjoining the Dumbano fire trail.
A couple of them went to within a few 100m of Dumbano Ck.
I found out that they were made for drilling purposes by the coal
company.
Now we learn that Centennial Coal is applying to extend their
workings, and to longwall mine all of that area that is so close to
Dumbano Ck and the Wollangambe River, as well as Gooches Crater.
The new workings would be only 400m from high quality undamaged canyon
in upper Dumbano Ck.
As well as cracking/collapsing the rock formations in the area, it
would be disasterous if Dumbano Ck was polluted with waste water, the
way they are polluting the Wollangambe at present (according to their
own consultants report in 1999).
We must try to stop this happening.
Please write submissions on DA 504/00 BY THE END OF FEBRUARY.
Urge that the Development Application be revised and resubmitted, and
that a new Environmental Impact Statement(EIS) be prepared for the
whole area affected.
Keith Muir (Colong Foundation) has listed the main people to contact,
and the issues involved (see David Nobles site canyoning newspage).


Bye.
Re: [OzCanyons] Clarence Colliery extensions Flynn Jan 31, 2001
Centennial is actually looking to extend both the Clarence(Katoomba seam)
and Springvale (Lithgow Seam) leases which would have the two opperations
butting up against each other or even over laping on the different seams.
I've had a look at the airial shots of the Springvale lease and it
currently skirts around a major canyon system, the longwall blocks
shortened in that section so as not to interefer with the canyons. Being on
the Lithgow seam Springvale is a lot deeper underground so I'd imagine an
even greater barrier would be needed for Clarence around Dumbano Ck.

At present Clarence is not a Longwall pit but Board and Pillar with stable
roof conditions and therefore should cause less strata damage but I imagine
mining would cause a drop in the water table drying out swamps and marshes
in the area as happened with areas near long swamp when Baal Bone
undermined them.



At 02:37 AM 2/1/01 -0000, you wrote:
> Hi canyoners,
>
> A few years ago, I was horrified when numerous new roads were
> cut through the bush adjoining the Dumbano fire trail.
> A couple of them went to within a few 100m of Dumbano Ck.
> I found out that they were made for drilling purposes by the coal
> company.
> Now we learn that Centennial Coal is applying to extend their
> workings, and to longwall mine all of that area that is so close to
> Dumbano Ck and the Wollangambe River, as well as Gooches Crater.
> The new workings would be only 400m from high quality undamaged canyon
> in upper Dumbano Ck.
> As well as cracking/collapsing the rock formations in the area, it
> would be disasterous if Dumbano Ck was polluted with waste water, the
> way they are polluting the Wollangambe at present (according to their
> own consultants report in 1999).
> We must try to stop this happening.
> Please write submissions on DA 504/00 BY THE END OF FEBRUARY.
> Urge that the Development Application be revised and resubmitted, and
> that a new Environmental Impact Statement(EIS) be prepared for the
> whole area affected.
> Keith Muir (Colong Foundation) has listed the main people to contact,
> and the issues involved (see David Nobles site canyoning newspage).
>
>
> Bye.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Flynn
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Clarence Colliery extensions Andrew Valja Feb 1 1:55 PM
Hi,
I have copy of a consultants Conceptual Mine Plan for Clarence
Colliery - Northern Extension, dated 1993, which shows planned
longwall mining from that year to the year 2013.
So unless they changed their plans, it must be happening.
There is also another issue with the new planned extensions:
The coal company's EIS shows the proposed lease boundary to be a few
hundred metres beyond the National Park (and Wilderness) boundary,
and at one point it actually touches Dumbano Ck. If it is approved,
then that will be where the mining can go to.

bye.

--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
>
> Centennial is actually looking to extend both the Clarence(Katoomba
seam)
> and Springvale (Lithgow Seam) leases which would have the two
opperations
> butting up against each other or even over laping on the different
seams.
> I've had a look at the airial shots of the Springvale lease and it
> currently skirts around a major canyon system, the longwall blocks
> shortened in that section so as not to interefer with the canyons.
Being on
> the Lithgow seam Springvale is a lot deeper underground so I'd
imagine an
> even greater barrier would be needed for Clarence around Dumbano Ck.
>
> At present Clarence is not a Longwall pit but Board and Pillar with
stable
> roof conditions and therefore should cause less strata damage but I
imagine
> mining would cause a drop in the water table drying out swamps and
marshes
> in the area as happened with areas near long swamp when Baal Bone
> undermined them.
>
>
>
> At 02:37 AM 2/1/01 -0000, you wrote:
> > Hi canyoners,
> >
> > A few years ago, I was horrified when numerous new roads were
> > cut through the bush adjoining the Dumbano fire trail.
> > A couple of them went to within a few 100m of Dumbano Ck.
> > I found out that they were made for drilling purposes by the coal
> > company.
> > Now we learn that Centennial Coal is applying to extend their
> > workings, and to longwall mine all of that area that is so close
to
> > Dumbano Ck and the Wollangambe River, as well as Gooches Crater.
> > The new workings would be only 400m from high quality undamaged
canyon
> > in upper Dumbano Ck.
> > As well as cracking/collapsing the rock formations in the area,
it
> > would be disasterous if Dumbano Ck was polluted with waste water,
the
> > way they are polluting the Wollangambe at present (according to
their
> > own consultants report in 1999).
> > We must try to stop this happening.
> > Please write submissions on DA 504/00 BY THE END OF FEBRUARY.
> > Urge that the Development Application be revised and resubmitted,
and
> > that a new Environmental Impact Statement(EIS) be prepared for
the
> > whole area affected.
> > Keith Muir (Colong Foundation) has listed the main people to
contact,
> > and the issues involved (see David Nobles site canyoning
newspage).
> >
> >
> > Bye.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> Flynn
> <http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
> <cflynn@l...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Clarence Colliery extensions Flynn Feb 1 4:00 PM
Yep in 93 Clarence would of just been setting up for a Longwall operation
and it was to be the bees knees of longwall pits. However in late 97 or
early 98 the compainy ,then Cyprus coal, was running at a loss and ceased
operations.

Cennetenial brought the lease a few months later and reopened it, returning
it to a baord and pillar extration type mine. As far as I know they have no
plans to return to longwall mining as the lay out of the pit is not
conductive of doing this effectively.

Whether the planned lease extentions will be geared more towards Longwall
mining I don't know.



At 09:55 PM 2/1/01 -0000, you wrote:
> Hi,
> I have copy of a consultants Conceptual Mine Plan for Clarence
> Colliery - Northern Extension, dated 1993, which shows planned
> longwall mining from that year to the year 2013.
> So unless they changed their plans, it must be happening.
> There is also another issue with the new planned extensions:
> The coal company's EIS shows the proposed lease boundary to be a few
> hundred metres beyond the National Park (and Wilderness) boundary,
> and at one point it actually touches Dumbano Ck. If it is approved,
> then that will be where the mining can go to.
>
> bye.
>
><> wrote:
>>
>> Centennial is actually looking to extend both the Clarence(Katoomba
> seam)
>> and Springvale (Lithgow Seam) leases which would have the two
> opperations
>> butting up against each other or even over laping on the different
> seams.
>> I've had a look at the airial shots of the Springvale lease and it
>> currently skirts around a major canyon system, the longwall blocks
>> shortened in that section so as not to interefer with the canyons.
> Being on
>> the Lithgow seam Springvale is a lot deeper underground so I'd
> imagine an
>> even greater barrier would be needed for Clarence around Dumbano Ck.
>>
>> At present Clarence is not a Longwall pit but Board and Pillar with
> stable
>> roof conditions and therefore should cause less strata damage but I
> imagine
>> mining would cause a drop in the water table drying out swamps and
> marshes
>> in the area as happened with areas near long swamp when Baal Bone
>> undermined them.
>>
>>
>>
>> At 02:37 AM 2/1/01 -0000, you wrote:
>>> Hi canyoners,
>>>
>>> A few years ago, I was horrified when numerous new roads were
>>> cut through the bush adjoining the Dumbano fire trail.
>>> A couple of them went to within a few 100m of Dumbano Ck.
>>> I found out that they were made for drilling purposes by the coal
>>> company.
>>> Now we learn that Centennial Coal is applying to extend their
>>> workings, and to longwall mine all of that area that is so close
> to
>>> Dumbano Ck and the Wollangambe River, as well as Gooches Crater.
>>> The new workings would be only 400m from high quality undamaged
> canyon
>>> in upper Dumbano Ck.
>>> As well as cracking/collapsing the rock formations in the area,
> it
>>> would be disasterous if Dumbano Ck was polluted with waste water,
> the
>>> way they are polluting the Wollangambe at present (according to
> their
>>> own consultants report in 1999).
>>> We must try to stop this happening.
>>> Please write submissions on DA 504/00 BY THE END OF FEBRUARY.
>>> Urge that the Development Application be revised and resubmitted,
> and
>>> that a new Environmental Impact Statement(EIS) be prepared for
> the
>>> whole area affected.
>>> Keith Muir (Colong Foundation) has listed the main people to
> contact,
>>> and the issues involved (see David Nobles site canyoning
> newspage).
>>>
>>>
>>> Bye.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Flynn
>><http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
>><>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor www..com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Flynn
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Clarence Colliery extensions Andrew Valja Feb 1 7:14 PM
Longwall mining was carried out at Clarence Colliery from 1993-1998.
Refer to:
From development to changeout: geology in the longwall mining cycle
at Clarence Colliery, by Graham Noon (1996).
Symposium on Geology in Longwall Mining, p233.
eds G.H. McNally and C.R. Ward.

bye.

--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
> Yep in 93 Clarence would of just been setting up for a Longwall
operation
> and it was to be the bees knees of longwall pits. However in late
97 or
> early 98 the compainy ,then Cyprus coal, was running at a loss and
ceased
> operations.
>
> Cennetenial brought the lease a few months later and reopened it,
returning
> it to a baord and pillar extration type mine. As far as I know they
have no
> plans to return to longwall mining as the lay out of the pit is not
> conductive of doing this effectively.
>
> Whether the planned lease extentions will be geared more towards
Longwall
> mining I don't know.
>
>
>
> At 09:55 PM 2/1/01 -0000, you wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I have copy of a consultants Conceptual Mine Plan for Clarence
> > Colliery - Northern Extension, dated 1993, which shows planned
> > longwall mining from that year to the year 2013.
> > So unless they changed their plans, it must be happening.
> > There is also another issue with the new planned extensions:
> > The coal company's EIS shows the proposed lease boundary to be a
few
> > hundred metres beyond the National Park (and Wilderness)
boundary,
> > and at one point it actually touches Dumbano Ck. If it is
approved,
> > then that will be where the mining can go to.
> >
> > bye.
> >
> ><> wrote:
> >>
> >> Centennial is actually looking to extend both the Clarence
(Katoomba
> > seam)
> >> and Springvale (Lithgow Seam) leases which would have the two
> > opperations
> >> butting up against each other or even over laping on the
different
> > seams.
> >> I've had a look at the airial shots of the Springvale lease and
it
> >> currently skirts around a major canyon system, the longwall
blocks
> >> shortened in that section so as not to interefer with the
canyons.
> > Being on
> >> the Lithgow seam Springvale is a lot deeper underground so I'd
> > imagine an
> >> even greater barrier would be needed for Clarence around Dumbano
Ck.
> >>
> >> At present Clarence is not a Longwall pit but Board and Pillar
with
> > stable
> >> roof conditions and therefore should cause less strata damage
but I
> > imagine
> >> mining would cause a drop in the water table drying out swamps
and
> > marshes
> >> in the area as happened with areas near long swamp when Baal Bone
> >> undermined them.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> At 02:37 AM 2/1/01 -0000, you wrote:
> >>> Hi canyoners,
> >>>
> >>> A few years ago, I was horrified when numerous new roads were
> >>> cut through the bush adjoining the Dumbano fire trail.
> >>> A couple of them went to within a few 100m of Dumbano Ck.
> >>> I found out that they were made for drilling purposes by the
coal
> >>> company.
> >>> Now we learn that Centennial Coal is applying to extend their
> >>> workings, and to longwall mine all of that area that is so
close
> > to
> >>> Dumbano Ck and the Wollangambe River, as well as Gooches Crater.
> >>> The new workings would be only 400m from high quality undamaged
> > canyon
> >>> in upper Dumbano Ck.
> >>> As well as cracking/collapsing the rock formations in the area,
> > it
> >>> would be disasterous if Dumbano Ck was polluted with waste
water,
> > the
> >>> way they are polluting the Wollangambe at present (according to
> > their
> >>> own consultants report in 1999).
> >>> We must try to stop this happening.
> >>> Please write submissions on DA 504/00 BY THE END OF FEBRUARY.
> >>> Urge that the Development Application be revised and
resubmitted,
> > and
> >>> that a new Environmental Impact Statement(EIS) be prepared for
> > the
> >>> whole area affected.
> >>> Keith Muir (Colong Foundation) has listed the main people to
> > contact,
> >>> and the issues involved (see David Nobles site canyoning
> > newspage).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Bye.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >>> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> Flynn
> >><http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
> >><>
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor www..com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> Flynn
> <http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
> <cflynn@l...>
Re: Canyons near Brisbane info@verticalreality.com.au Feb 2 2:43 AM
Hello,

The Back Creek canyon and Burnett Creek Gorge canyon are probably the
only decent one's found locally (as far as I am aware!). Having said
that they pale in significance next to Blue Mountains canyons. Back
Creek in particular is becoming very overgrown and the middle section
can be frustrating and unrewarding with river rocks risking ankle
injuries and lantana making progress miserable. Floods or fire may be
the only way to improve this middle section. The nicest parts are in
the lower Killarney Glen region, which previously could be reached
via an army access road (now also overgrown). Be aware that the area
is politically and militarily sensitive (with the army VERY
protective about access)

Burnett Creek Gorge is officially "off-limits" according to Dept of
Natural Resources (did I say "officially"?). Several good abseils are
found here, but again access issues need to be skirted around...

Otherwise there are a handful of more open canyons near Coffs
Harbour, but these lack the slot nature of BM canyons. I must admit,
the few recces we've done haven't turned up anything, but good
waterfall abseils can be had in Lamington National Park (Upper
Ballanjui Falls ~90m or so) and outside Byron at Minyon Falls (>100m)

Hope this is of some help

Dr Leo Marneros MB BS FACEM

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Brenton Searle" <bd.searle@s...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am wondering if anyone in your group knows of any canyons in the
> Brisbane or S/E QLD area. I have just returned to brisbane from 3
> weeks in the Blue Mountains, where I enjoyed doing Grand and
Butterbox
> Canyons.
>
> Myself and a few others are keen to find out any info on canyons in
> our area.
>
> If anyone knows of any can they please let me know, as any info
would
> be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Brenton
G'day Peter Jamieson Feb 2 9:32 PM

Hi everyone,

Just introducing myself, my name is Peter Jamieson, I work with Lee here at kurrajong, guiding Canyon and Bushfood tours out into the mountains.

I read with interest the messages submitted over the last few months and am excited at the prospect of having a get together with fellow Aussie and overseas canyoners sometime in the future.

On another note, was anyone in a canyon on the long weekend, Saturday around Mt Wilson? major storm as everyone made their way out of Wollongambe, flash flood material, heaps of people, some crying and freaking out as they were waiting on the ledge to climb out, so the going was extremely slow. Having a safety rope was essential to getting out of the first section as it was pretty well a muddy water/rock fall where it is normally an easy tree root climb, and does anyone know where the best place is to stand when a lightning storm goes over and your on an Ironstone and Basalt ridge, or what’s a good prayer to recite!!!!!

Has anyone experienced a flash flood in the Blue Mountains?

Peter Jamieson

Administrative Manager

Local Focus Nature Tours

Visit us on the Web! http://www.naturetours.com.au/

Phone: 61 (0)2 4567 7000

Mobile: 0414 585 672

Fax: 61 (0)2 4567 7800

Email: localfocus@...

 

Re: [OzCanyons] G'day Flynn Feb 3 10:26 PM
Hi Peter

I've been flooded out of Hole in the Wall. Luckly we hadn't entered the
lower constriction yet but it was still scary stuff. It' surprising just
how fast the water levels rise.

I've also been hailed out of Rocky creek after doing Coachwood canyon. I've
a few Photos of the hail at the end of my Coachwood photo tour
<http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/gorge/2151/cw1.html>

cheers
Craig

At 04:32 PM 2/3/01 +1100, you wrote:
> Hi everyone, Just introducing myself, my name is Peter Jamieson, I
>work with Lee here at kurrajong, guiding Canyon and Bushfood tours out into
>the mountains. I read with interest the messages submitted over the last
>few months and am excited at the prospect of having a get together with
>fellow Aussie and overseas canyoners sometime in the future. On another
>note, was anyone in a canyon on the long weekend, Saturday around Mt
>Wilson? major storm as everyone made their way out of Wollongambe, flash
>flood material, heaps of people, some crying and freaking out as they were
>waiting on the ledge to climb out, so the going was extremely slow. Having
>a safety rope was essential to getting out of the first section as it was
>pretty well a muddy water/rock fall where it is normally an easy tree root
>climb, and does anyone know where the best place is to stand when a
>lightning storm goes over and your on an Ironstone and Basalt ridge, or
>what’s a good prayer to recite!!!!! Has anyone experienced a flash
>flood in the Blue Mountains? Peter Jamieson Administrative Manager Local
>Focus Nature Tours Visit us on the Web! http://www.naturetours.com.au/
>Phone: 61 (0)2 4567 7000 Mobile: 0414 585 672 Fax: 61 (0)2 4567 7800
>Email: localfocus@...
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>www.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Lee: a question Andrew Valja Feb 5 4:22 PM
Hi Lee,

Can you help?
I have tried to attach an image to a message I was going
to post, but when I drag it into the message window, all
I can see is the image, and no message text.
I have also tried to put an image in the Files area of the
options on the left of the screen, but it didn't work either.
It would be good if group members showed canyon photos for others
to see. I always enjoy seeing a good canyon shot: somewhere
different, action shots, or aesthetic photos.

bye....Andrew
RE: [OzCanyons] Lee: a question Lee Etherington Feb 5 5:13 PM
G'day Andrew,
The best option is to add the picture to the files section of the group. To
do this...
Click on the Files link.
Either:
1)
a. click on the 'create folder' link
b. Type in a name for the folder
c. Type in a description for the folder
d. Click on the create folder button
e. Then you will be returned to the starting window where your new folder
will appear with the other folders, of which the only one at this stage is
the Blue Mountain Canyon pics! Folder. You can put your pictures in here if
you want or just add them without a folder. From here follow 2) below.
2)
a. Click on the 'add file' link
b. Here is the tricky part. This part gets the file from your hard drive and
uploads it to the website... Click 'Browse' button next to the file name
description box. This will open your hard drive. Click through to wherever
it is that you have the picture stored and double click on the picture. This
will add the file location on your hard drive to the file name box.
c. Add a description to the 'description' box.
d. If you want to let everyone know, click the 'send a message to the group
announcing this file' box
e. Click 'Upload File" button.
f. This will take a minute. When the file is uploaded, there will be no
reference to your hard drive and no one will be able to access your files,
the picture or file will be stored on yahoo's computer.
g. Repeat if you want to add more pictures. There is plenty of space so add
as many good ones as you like!

Hope this helps.
If not, just send the pic to me via email and I will post it. My personal
email is localfocus@...
lee


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Valja [mailto:valjaa@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 11:22 AM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Lee: a question

Hi Lee,

Can you help?
I have tried to attach an image to a message I was going
to post, but when I drag it into the message window, all
I can see is the image, and no message text.
I have also tried to put an image in the Files area of the
options on the left of the screen, but it didn't work either.
It would be good if group members showed canyon photos for others
to see. I always enjoy seeing a good canyon shot: somewhere
different, action shots, or aesthetic photos.

bye....Andrew





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
New file uploaded to OzCanyons OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com Feb 6 3:17 PM
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the OzCanyons
group.

File : /flashflood1.jpg
Uploaded by : valjaa@...
Description : flashflood!

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OzCanyons/files/flashflood1.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

valjaa@...
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms
Rocky Creek Rescue? David Noble Feb 12 12:52 AM
Hi all

Coming back from along the Glow Worm tunnel road on Saturday evening
last weekend (about 6pm?) - we noticed a large Rescue Truck (Lithgow VRA
I think) heading out towards Galah Mtn. It was just starting to rain heavily.

Does anybody know in more?

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
RE: [OzCanyons] Rocky Creek Rescue? Cathi Humphrey-Hood Feb 12 2:05 PM
Good morning everyone,

Apparently it was a broken ankle affair - I have pasted a section of an
email sent to me yesterday from a member of my canyoning team, Anne-Marie:

"I came to work this morning to find 2 of my collegues, who have never been
canyoning before , went to rocky creek (separately) on Saturday and Sunday.
The Saturday group (a party of 10 people with 4 first-timers) had one of
their group airlifted out of the canyon with a broken ankle. The 'victim'
was actually one of the experienced people in the party. They didn't have
space blankets with them but had plenty of food and clothing. A leader from
a tour group provided a space blanket. The 'victim' jumped down a hole
about 100 metres into the canyon, caught her leg on a log and the flow of
the water carried her down stream before she had a chance to dislodge her
ankle from the log, so that her ankle broke under the pressure. She was
airlifted out by careflight about 5 hours later (the poor buggers also
suffered from a broken drive shaft on their car on the way in - they sure
did cop it that day).

The other girl (who went on Sunday) twisted her ankle much like you did at
Bungonia. I feel pretty lucky. These people now consider canyoning a
guaranteed accident."


Regards,
Cathi Humphrey-Hood


-----Original Message-----
From: David Noble [mailto:dnoble@...]
Sent: Monday, 12 February 2001 19:53
To: OzCanyons
Subject: [OzCanyons] Rocky Creek Rescue?


Hi all

Coming back from along the Glow Worm tunnel road on Saturday evening
last weekend (about 6pm?) - we noticed a large Rescue Truck (Lithgow VRA
I think) heading out towards Galah Mtn. It was just starting to rain
heavily.

Does anybody know in more?

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



######################################################################
This message is intended for the use of the party to whom it is addressed and may contain information which is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this communication in error, please notify us by telephone and either return the original message or ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this communication and its attachments by anyone other than the party to whom it is addressed is strictly prohibited.
######################################################################
RE: [OzCanyons] Rocky Creek Rescue? Flynn Feb 12 8:18 PM
With the spate of resent canyoning accidents I thought it might be timely
to point out that the Lithgow VRA who attend most of the canyoning and
climbing rescues around the Lithgow area (Mt Willson, Newnes forest,
Wolgan)are a voluntry organisation who relie on public donations to cover
operating expenses.

The vast majority of it's members are neither canyoners or climbers yet
time and again they put themselves out coming to the aid of injured
adventurers.

It surprised me then when I was told that out of all the canyon rescues
they have attended in the last couple of years they have never received a
word of thank or a kick back from the rescued parties.

Now while they don't do it for the thanks and they don't expect kick backs
it's quite an expensive job to maintain rescue equipment and keep the truck
on the road. Time and time again these people are risking themselves to
save others. The least you could do if you've been rescued is to drop a
carton at the shed (It's in Mort street, on the right hand side opposite
the petrol station before you come to the lights if you've come into
Lithgow from Bell) and say thanks. I think the guys are there Tuesday nights.

If the rescue involves a professional tour operator these people should be
obliged to donate some gear. Ropes, ascenders, pully systems... they all
come in handy just ask them what they need because I think they can only
use certain brands.

These people are doing a great job how about we show a bit of support.

At 09:05 AM 2/13/01 +1100, you wrote:
>Good morning everyone,
>
>Apparently it was a broken ankle affair - I have pasted a section of an
>email sent to me yesterday from a member of my canyoning team, Anne-Marie:
>
>"I came to work this morning to find 2 of my collegues, who have never been
>canyoning before , went to rocky creek (separately) on Saturday and Sunday.
>The Saturday group (a party of 10 people with 4 first-timers) had one of
>their group airlifted out of the canyon with a broken ankle. The 'victim'
>was actually one of the experienced people in the party. They didn't have
>space blankets with them but had plenty of food and clothing. A leader from
>a tour group provided a space blanket. The 'victim' jumped down a hole
>about 100 metres into the canyon, caught her leg on a log and the flow of
>the water carried her down stream before she had a chance to dislodge her
>ankle from the log, so that her ankle broke under the pressure. She was
>airlifted out by careflight about 5 hours later (the poor buggers also
>suffered from a broken drive shaft on their car on the way in - they sure
>did cop it that day).
>
>The other girl (who went on Sunday) twisted her ankle much like you did at
>Bungonia. I feel pretty lucky. These people now consider canyoning a
>guaranteed accident."
>
>
>Regards,
>Cathi Humphrey-Hood
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: David Noble [mailto:dnoble@...]
>Sent: Monday, 12 February 2001 19:53
>To: OzCanyons
>Subject: [OzCanyons] Rocky Creek Rescue?
>
>
>Hi all
>
>Coming back from along the Glow Worm tunnel road on Saturday evening
>last weekend (about 6pm?) - we noticed a large Rescue Truck (Lithgow VRA
>I think) heading out towards Galah Mtn. It was just starting to rain
>heavily.
>
>Does anybody know in more?
>
>Dave
>--
>--------------------------
>David Noble
>dnoble@...
>http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>######################################################################
>This message is intended for the use of the party to whom it is addressed
and may contain information which is confidential. If you are not the
intended recipient and have received this communication in error, please
notify us by telephone and either return the original message or ensure its
destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this communication and its
attachments by anyone other than the party to whom it is addressed is
strictly prohibited.
>######################################################################
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>
Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
RE: [OzCanyons] Rocky Creek Rescue? Lee Etherington Feb 13 12:52 AM
In Total agreement!
Im really glad that the list is working, especially hearing details on the
incidents, this is valuble information that we can all learn from, it seems
most accidents are caused by water jumps as im sure most of us are aware.
If anyone ever does get rescued, I hope they do feel obliged to help back in
some way. I'm sure a case of beer would be greatly appreciated but it does
seem measley in comparison to the costs of all that gear, vehicles and time
from the volunteers etc etc etc.
Went through nth bowens creek lower nth branch, many trees down everywhere
and the water is very clear, especially in comparison to a few weeks ago.
Also the Antichinus are out so any females Beware, its that time of the
year. (these guys mate until they drop dead!!!)
Regards,
Lee
Re: [OzCanyons] Digest Number 51 Adam Bramwell Feb 21 7:43 PM
Rich,

If you head straight up to the Blue Mtns when you arrive, a good place
to meet some OzCanyoners is in the main campground, Cathedral Reserve
on Saturday night. It is the centre for some of our gentler canyons
based around the Wollangambe river system. I will be there, as well
as a good percentage of the active weekend canyoning community that
doesn't live in the mountains!

I haven't heard anything further about a social gathering so I am
assuming it's not on?

As far as gear goes, a wetsuit is definitely compulsory, as well as a
secure drybag/box for those long lilo-canyons. You are bringing a
brightly-coloured lilo straight from the sixties aren't you? ;-)

Have a great time, see you out there.
Adam


>Hello, everyone
>
>I depart in two days and am really looking forward to meeting as many
>Ozzie canyoners as I possibly can during my two-week stay. I hope Lee
>still has a room available for me at his place.
>
>What sort of weather and water temperatures shall I expect? I plan to
>pack my wet suit, just in case. Any other suggestions on gear I
>should bring?
>
>Rich


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Re: Digest Number 51 rcwild@wildernessmail.net Feb 22 4:02 AM
Adam,

I did hear from Peter Jamieson. I understand that Lee is quite busy.
Might still have some sort of gathering, but it's okay either way.
I'll bring some slides just in case. As long as I get to see many
canyons I'll be happy.

If I don't see you sooner, I will look you up at the campground.

I have not used a lilo in a long time. Perhaps I will wait to
purchase an "official" Oz lilo when I arrive.

Rich
Canyoning Get Together! localfocus@zeta.org.au Feb 22 1:08 PM
Hi Folks,
Well, after being innundated for a while (peak season and preparing
for the Royal easter show), lets get something organised. First
weekend in March sounds and looks good to me. Peter Jamieson has
organised our venue at Kurrajong Heights, a nice big social room at
the ex-Kurrajong heights health farm (1537 Bells Line of Road). We
have slide projector etc and there is a good varied cliff face just
around the corner if we want to run through some technical stuff. I
would like to organise a trip through whungee whengee and claustral
around the above dates, preferably week days to avoid the crowds. i
would be happy for other members to organise other trips for list
members & friends but would appreciate that we all observe the
canyoning code and don't go over maximum party sizes too much to
reduce impacts and avoid giving ourselves a bad name.

Who is interested? I think that this is a wonderful opportunity to
get together and to share information and to learn from Rich who will
add a different perspective to the way we do things. Don't forget
Rich's book which will prove a valuble asset to all canyoners.

Looking forward to a positive response, i will try to get things
organised today.

Regards,
Lee Etherington
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Digest Number 51 leonard metcalf Feb 22 5:02 PM
Dear Rich,

If you are still looking for a place to stay in the Blue Mountains please
give me a call on my mobile on 0418 673052... you are most welcome to come
and stay at my place in Mount Victoria... besides it has lovely hot
showers...

I am a canyoning photographer and have my own art gallery in Katoomba that
currently has an exhibition of Blue Mountain Canyon Photographs...

I am also involved in teaching the Outdoor Guides Course at Katoomba TAFE,
which has a specialist stream for Canyoning... would be happy to look after
you for a few days, and especially a few mid week canyoning days when it is
a bit quiter out there...

Regards,

Leonard Metcalf
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Digest Number 51 James Shadlow Feb 22 10:11 PM
hi everybody
myself and a group of friends are goinng to do
Birrabang canyon tommorrow. if anybody has any
suggestion as in what to look out for, anything
interesting, i would be much obliged
James Shadlow

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Mining Threat to World Heritage Lee Etherington Feb 23 1:44 PM

Dear Wilderness Supporters,
Had a chat with Keith Muir of the Colong Foundation, he gave me this info to give to you guys in relation to the Clarence Colliery issue which is on the table at this moment. Any submissions need to be made ASAP, this release gives a bit of an idea of where things stand at this point and how and where to get your message across.


 
PRIORITY: HIGH.

World Heritage and wilderness values of the Wollangambe area
(within the Gardens of Stone National Park proposal) under threat from coal mining. 

Actual notifiable mine pollution of the Greater Blue Mountains World Heritage Area occurring.

Positive resolution of issue may be precedent setting.

LOCATION
: The proposed mining lease extension for the Clarence Colliery is on Newnes Plateau at Bell, on the watershed between the Wollangambe River and the Farmers Creek tributary of the Coxs River.

ISSUES: Pollution of World Heritage property, damage to Wollemi wilderness, uplands swamps, starving catchments of water, cracking up the landscape including pagoda rock features.

ACTION: Get your submission on the Clarence Colliery lease extensions in NOW seeking end to pollution of pristine Wollangambe and prevention of catchment damage. (guide letter attached below).

Submission numbers are needed to get the concerns addressed.

Current state of play:

1. Senator Hill has written to Lithgow City Council and Centennial Coal about their responsibilities in protecting World Heritage.

2. Sydney Catchment Authority and Department of Land and Water Conservation have "stopped the clock" over the groundwater concerns. The EIS has insufficent information on groundwater effects (key issue).

3. SCA has a concurrence power on the DA. The Lithgow Council will be a CMFEU rubber stamp.

4. Freedom of Information request lodged with Environment Protection Authority. Certificate of Compliance for pollution licence January 1999 - December 2000 admits to pollution.

5. Submission deadline on the EIS is 28 February 2001, no extensions.

Keith



Guide Letter: Clarence Colliery Lease Extension

NOTE: SUBMISSIONS CLOSE 28 FEBRUARY

Your name
And address

Mr Stuart McPherson
General Manager
Lithgow City Council
P O Box 19
LITHGOW  NSW  2790

Dear Mr McPherson

Re: Clarence Colliery Proposed Extension  Submission as an Objection
Lithgow City Council DA 504/00

I object to the proposed Clarence Colliery lease extension because it will damage World Heritage and the other outstanding natural values in the Wollangambe area including the NPWS identified Wollemi Wilderness.

Full extraction coal mining that is proposed for most of the area will fracture the rock strata. Ground and surface water catchments would then drain vertically and cause an increased amount of water to flow into the mine pit. More polluted water would need to be pumped into the pristine Wollangambe River and the World Heritage property downstream. As this polluted water leaving the mine would not meet EPA guidelines, the proposal as it stands is unacceptable.

Furthermore, ‘Full extraction’ mining in the adjoining lease areas would crack the rock strata in the national park.

The upland swamps and heathlands in the national park have World Heritage values and the cracking would starve the spring dependent vegetation of water, permanently damaging these rare plant communities. I am concerned that mining will also disfigure pagoda rock formations where these are not associated with the proposed protection areas.

I request that the mine proposal be refused and Centennial Coal be asked to amend its development application. Mining should be limited to ‘partial extraction’ methods only to fully protect ground and surface water aquifers, World Heritage values, the wilderness, high conservation value upland swamps and pagoda features of the Wollangambe area.

Centennial Coal should stop polluting the Wollangambe River. Instead, Clarence Colliery should only discharge adequately treated water to the Coxs River catchment which requires extra water to maintain its health. Partial extraction would ensure that the amount of polluted water pumped from the mine did not increase. This would also ensure that the area’s rare swamps, heaths, slot canyons and particularly Lithgow’s drinking water supply are not starved of water.

Yours sincerely


Submissions need to be made ASAP!

 

Peter Jamieson

Administrative Manager

Local Focus Nature Tours

Visit us on the Web! www.naturetours.com.au

Ph: 02 4567 7000

Fax: 0245 677 800

Mobile: 0414 585 672

Email: localfocus@...

 

 

Re: Mining Pollution cflynn@lisp.com.au Feb 25 2:18 AM
There maybe some releif on the way for Rivers that are currently
suffering from mine pollution, such as the Wollangambe.

Apparently Delta is now required to increase releases from its dams to
boost flow in the long suffering Coxs river. From what I hear they are
currently talking to the major mines around Lithgow (Clarence and
Springvale in particular but I think Angus Pl and Baal Bone will be
included)to come up with a plan for purifying mine waste water and
pumping it into Lake Lyle.

The idea was first brought up a few years ago to help releave drought
conditions but fell by the way side. Now, however, government has
introduced acts which will force Delta to increase flow into the Coxs
R. Mine water looks to be the sensible option.

On a another note Centennial Coal <http://www.centennialcoal.com.au/>
held an openday at Clarence mine last week to discuss mine subsidence
and other concerns about the lease extentions with Clarence residents.
I'm not sure of the outcome but if I hear anything I'll keep you
posted.
G'day from Katoomba rcwild@wildernessmail.net Feb 25 3:25 PM
I can write "g'day" better than I can say it.

Arrived in Katoomba. Lee let me tag along with him through
Wallongambe Creek yesterday. Very nice and relaxing for my first
canyon here. Helped me get over the jet lag.

I am looking forward to meeting more of you. I have received several
emails with phone numbers and will try to contact everyone today.

The best email address to use for me is rcwildone@.... I can
check it easily from this internet cafe. I'm hoping to track down
Leonard Metcalf today to take him up on his generous offer of
lodging. Perhaps I'll be reachable through him.

As I was packing to leave the states a friend kidded me that I would
probably forget something. Unfortunately, it turns out he was right.
All of my slides are sitting at home. Hope you will all forgive me. I
would still be interested in a get together, but perhaps it would be
better to have it during the day to share some techniques ...
followed by a few beers, of course.

Rich
Clarence Colliery Peter Jamieson Feb 25 10:14 PM

Submissions to the Lithgow City Council in regard to the Mining Lease Extension for the Clarence Colliery need to be in before this Wednesday so I thought you guys might like to use the Councils Fax Number, which is 63512927, if you were thinking of voicing your opinion, and concerns.

 

Peter Jamieson

Administrative Manager

Local Focus Nature Tours

Visit us on the Web! http://www.naturetours.com.au/

Phone: 61 (0)2 4567 7000

Mobile: 0414 585 672

Fax: 61 (0)2 4567 7800

Email: localfocus@...

 

Claustral and Beer rcwild@wildernessmail.net Feb 27 1:53 PM
So far, my stay here has been a total pleasure. Extremely friendly
people and incredible hospitality.

Did Butterbox with Leonard yesterday. Enjoyed all of it except for
the rock climbing in the rain. It started to pour just as we started
to climb. Quit raining as soon as we were finished. Perfect timing.

Off to do Rocky Creek today with Leonard and Lowan.

Lee and Peter have suggested doing Claustral on Saturday. Anyone up
to joining us will be welcome. We could follow it up with some good
conversation and beer (or good beer and conversation). I'll let Lee
suggest where to meet and what time.

Looking forward to meeting more people from this group.

Rich
RE: [OzCanyons] Claustral and Beer Lee Etherington Feb 27 3:15 PM
Claustral this Saturday...
How about we meet at the claustral carpark at 8:45 am sharp for a 9am
departure.
Following the canyon we can head back to my base at kurrajong heights for a
few beers (byo), munchies and perhaps a few slides on our local canyons. How
does that sound? I don't quite know how many people will turn up, lets keep
it reasonable in the canyon but if your in a different canyon, your welcome
to drop in for a drink at kurrajong heights, (we'll be there after 6:30pm)
on your way home on Saturday evening. Its at the old Kurrajong Heights
Health Farm, 1537 Bells Line of Road. Look forward to seeing some of you
then.
Regards,
Lee
Canyons Canyons Canyons rcwild@wildernessmail.net Feb 28 6:14 PM
Had a very full day yesterday. In the morning we (Leonard, Lowan,
Duncan and I) did Twister and Rocky Creek. In the afternoon we did
Wolgan View. Last night Leonard and I did Grand Canyon. The glow
worms were spectacular. Today I need the rest.

It occurs to me how incredible groups like this really are. We have
the ability to reach out and meet other people with similar interests
clear across the globe, make new friends and share ideas.

Thank you, Lee, for setting this up. If the Oz Canyons Group can
bring people together from around the world, imagine what a powerful
tool it can be for bringing people together from right around here.

Rich
list James Shadlow Mar 1, 2001

hey everybody

my dad is part of this mailing list but he cant recieve any of the mail for some strange reason. his email address is shadj@.... if you would all be so kind as to add him to your mailing list as well, we would all be much obliged.

bye everybody

James shadlow



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Re: [OzCanyons] list Flynn Mar 3, 2001
G'day James

Has your Dad tried changing his delivery options through the main page?
Everyone has the option of recieving the post via email or just reading
them from the server.


At 10:38 PM 3/1/01 -0800, you wrote:
> hey everybody my dad is part of this mailing list but he cant recieve any
>of the mail for some strange reason. his email address is shadj@....
>if you would all be so kind as to add him to your mailing list as well, we
>would all be much obliged. bye everybody James shadlow
>
>Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo!
>Mail.
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
More Canyons Mathew Black Mar 3, 2001
Has anyone organised more canyons for Rich this week or do you (Rich) leave us too soon.
 
Mat Black.
Re: [OzCanyons] list James Shadlow Mar 3, 2001

hi all

no flynn, dad couldnt read it straight from the server, something wrong with the connection preferences, so he cant read anything from Yahoo mailing lists.

James



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RE: [OzCanyons] More Canyons Lee Etherington Mar 4, 2001

G’day Mat,

Rich has had a pretty intensive program in his week or so here. He flys to NZ on Wednesday and won’t be out in any more canyons this time. Don’t worry, he’ll be back…

Will send a more detailed post when I have time.

Regards,

Lee

Re: More Canyons rcwild@wildernessmail.net Mar 5, 2001
G'day everyone,

Australia's Blue Mountains are amazing. So lush and green, and the
views are spectacular. During my 10-day visit, I have done 8 canyons.
Each one was very special. Hopefully, a few of the 250+ photos I took
will turn out. I will get them up on my web site as soon as possible.

The only thing more amazing here than the landscape are the people. The
friends I have made during this visit will be friends for life; the
hospitality that everyone extended to me has gone far beyond my
expectations.

I will be leaving on Wednesday, but Lee is right; I will be back.

Rich
New file uploaded to OzCanyons OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com Mar 9, 2001
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the OzCanyons
group.

File : /Rich Downunder!.jpg
Uploaded by : localfocus@...
Description : Rich Carlsen (L), president of the American Canyoneering Association in Yileen Canyon with Lee Etherington(R)

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OzCanyons/files/Rich%20Downunder%21.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

localfocus@...
Canyons Lowan Turton Mar 11, 2001
I really enjoyed the chance to go canyoning with Rich and also to discuss
canyons, canyoning and canyon people with someone with non-Australian
experience. There's lots to learn on gear and techniques and there was
lively discussion on shoes and descending devices as well. Thanks to Lee
for setting up Ozcanyons, this was a chance to meet and share experience
and knowledge that otherwise would have been near impossible.

Most of us meet other groups out in the bush but there is no chance for
exchanges other than pleasantries. I'd like to think we could all learn
from our fellow canyoners (even if its just up to date info about a dead
wallaby before the last swim in ROCKY CREEK canyon) and this list gives us
a chance to share experiences. Most of us are out there for basically the
same reasons, even the paying clients who expect a return for their
money! It's all in the name of fun and appreciation of canyons and the
Aussie bush. If you're worried about writing to this list just use the old
standby of "places and names have been changed to protect..."

I know this weather has slowed up my canyoning, but I'm still out there as
often as I can. There are more canyons than days in the year so we should
be able to have new exciting experiences every trip. Don't forget to
revisit the well worn old faithfuls, but be prepared for others enjoying
themselves. They might / might not have the same skills or experience as
your group but they are still out there. We all need space for a true
WILDERNESS experience.

See you in the bush,

Lowan Turton
Canyoning death on the weekend David Mar 11, 2001
Hi All,
Does anyone know the details of the canyoning death that occured this
weekend? (10th/11th)
I've only heard it was a 28yo female, but I haven't heard which
canyon it was, how she died, or if it was with a commercial group etc
Just curious.

Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Canyoning death on the weekend Lee Etherington Mar 11, 2001
All ive heard is that it was a group of three women, with some experience. I
heard that it was bowens creek canyon, I assume that means north branch
lower section.
One woman got caught (abseils?) and then the water rose quickly and she
drowned. I heard that they were removing the body today.
Anyone else got any details?
Water levels are very high in general, Yileen on Saturday was up about two
feet.
Regards,
Lee
Re: Canyoning death on the weekend andrew_mitchell@my-deja.com Mar 11, 2001
I have heard an (unconfirmed) report that it was in one of the
Bowen's ck canyons. She was apparently quite experienced, so I
assume it wasn't a commercial group. Again, filtered through about 3
people before getting to my ears, she was last seen in waist-deep
water and then disappeared. We were going to do Nth Branch Bowen's
ourselves on Sunday but pulled out because of the rain.

Andrew

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "David" <tronnort@y...> wrote:
> Hi All,
> Does anyone know the details of the canyoning death that occured
this
> weekend? (10th/11th)
> I've only heard it was a 28yo female, but I haven't heard which
> canyon it was, how she died, or if it was with a commercial group
etc
> Just curious.
>
> Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Canyons Lee Etherington Mar 11, 2001
Thanks for your kind words Lowen,
Its was great to hear from you, Rich certainly had a great time with you and
Leonard. Hopefully he will be able to run some training courses next time he
returns to Australia, lets also hope that his Canyoning technical manual
comes out soon. The international technical manuals that he had (Spanish,
French, german and English) were pretty good, some interesting approaches to
similar problems that we have.
I look forward to meeting you one day Lowen.
Regards,
Lee
Re: Canyoning death on the weekend David Mar 11, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> All ive heard is that it was a group of three women, with some
experience. I
> heard that it was bowens creek canyon, I assume that means north
branch
> lower section.
> One woman got caught (abseils?) and then the water rose quickly and
she
> drowned. I heard that they were removing the body today.

Thanks.

> Anyone else got any details?
> Water levels are very high in general, Yileen on Saturday was up
about two
> feet.
> Regards,
> Lee

I did Dalpura on Sat and it was very high, about an extra 2m in the
second constriction, and at least 1m higher in the main cavern at the
abseil point. Made for a very exciting abseil into the main cavern
though. Compared with 3 weeks ago which was just a trickle.

Dave :)
Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals David Mar 11, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> Thanks for your kind words Lowen,
> Its was great to hear from you, Rich certainly had a great time
with you and
> Leonard. Hopefully he will be able to run some training courses
next time he
> returns to Australia, lets also hope that his Canyoning technical
manual
> comes out soon. The international technical manuals that he had
(Spanish,
> French, german and English) were pretty good, some interesting
approaches to
> similar problems that we have.
> I look forward to meeting you one day Lowen.
> Regards,
> Lee

Where can these technical manuals be found?, would love to get my
hands something like that. Anyone know of any others?, or books?, web
based ones would be nice.

Thanks
Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Lee Etherington Mar 11, 2001
Im not sure yet,
I will be trying to track them down this winter, if I find them I will let
the list know.
You could try amazon.com ??
Lee
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning death on the weekend James Shadlow Mar 11, 2001
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<P>hi everybody</P>
<P>the news that i heard was that the woman, after
finnishing the abseils with the rest of the group
moved ahead into a swim. from there, in the waist deep
water she couldnt get back to her companions. the
other 2 couldnt get anything out to the gilr to rescue
her, so they went for help. when they returned she had
drowned. </P>
<P>im guessing that it was a combination of the water
level, hypothemia and probably a little bit of
maddness, as it has been raining heavily up in the
mountains steadily. these are just my thoughts on what
has happened from what i have heard. anybody willing
to critize me, go for it</P>
<P>James Shadlow</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

__________________________________________________
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Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning death on the weekend David Noble Mar 11, 2001
Hi all

I have put a detailed report from Nigel Hardiman about the tragedy on my
canyon news page at:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/canyoningnews.html

Many thanks to Nigel for his information. He was on the scene of the
canyoning death. His report is both sad and disturbing.

Dave Noble
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Fw: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning on the weekend Matthew Black Mar 12, 2001
Hi everyone,

Just to let you know, on Saturday 10th Mar, I took a party of 4 inc myself
(2-6 canyons or so experience each for the others, but they had fairly good
abseil experience) through Coachwood expecting to do Rocky Creek in reverse,
but having an alternate backout plan using the big bend exit. We got to the
first abseil in Coachwood and decided to go past the point of no return.
Great fun had by all in the abseils down the water falls. When we hit Rocky
Creek, I noticed the obvious high water, stopped at the normal Rocky Creek
turn around point and thought about the whirlpool, deliberating for a few
mins, then a group came through advising that they had quite some difficulty
at the whirlpool (a pushed under, even a head first job, if I remember
correctly), Hmm. Decided to check it out, and if it was as they said we
would turn back and go for the big bend exit. When we got there the volume
was about 1/2 what we were lead to believe (but it was enough to cause
problems to anyone inexperienced) we bridged the whirlpool quite
successfully no mishaps, the slippery log posed no problem as well. Back to
the car park.

I looked at the weather on Sunday and said no way hosea.

Mat.


----- Original Message -----
From: David Noble <dnoble@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning death on the weekend


> Hi all
>
> I have put a detailed report from Nigel Hardiman about the tragedy on my
> canyon news page at:
>
> http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/canyoningnews.html
>
> Many thanks to Nigel for his information. He was on the scene of the
> canyoning death. His report is both sad and disturbing.
>
> Dave Noble
> --
> --------------------------
> David Noble
> dnoble@...
> http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Re: Fw: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning on the weekend David Noble Mar 12, 2001
Matthew Black wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Just to let you know, on Saturday 10th Mar, I took a party of 4 inc myself
> (2-6 canyons or so experience each for the others, but they had fairly good
> abseil experience) through Coachwood expecting to do Rocky Creek in reverse,
> but having an alternate backout plan using the big bend exit. We got to the
> first abseil in Coachwood and decided to go past the point of no return.
> Great fun had by all in the abseils down the water falls. When we hit Rocky
> Creek, I noticed the obvious high water, stopped at the normal Rocky Creek
> turn around point and thought about the whirlpool, deliberating for a few
> mins, then a group came through advising that they had quite some difficulty
> at the whirlpool (a pushed under, even a head first job, if I remember
> correctly), Hmm. Decided to check it out, and if it was as they said we
> would turn back and go for the big bend exit. When we got there the volume
> was about 1/2 what we were lead to believe (but it was enough to cause
> problems to anyone inexperienced) we bridged the whirlpool quite
> successfully no mishaps, the slippery log posed no problem as well. Back to
> the car park.

Mat - you must have been in the party we saw (we were setting up
practice abseil ropes on the cliffs below the car park) on saturday
afternoon - about 4 ish. We were wondering how the small girl in your
party managed on the "whirlpool" section?

In the other party that went through the canyon earlier - was a friend
of mine leading a party of his surfing mates - so they may have been
used to "big water". I heard that one guy got jammed in head first -
with his pack caught under the water holding him down. When he managed
to extracate himself - he saw one of his mates jump in and only saw some
feet sticking out of the pool. Others in the party had to pull him out.
>
> I looked at the weather on Sunday and said no way hosea.

Yes - we camped at Leura - and it rained pretty continuously all night -
and quite heavily in the morning. We cancelled all canyoning plans for
Sunday.

Some canyons - such as those in the Gardens of Stone would never flash
flood since their catchments are too small - but all of the beter known
canyons would have been out of the question. I'm surprised people even
went down the track at Bowens Ck.

Dave
>
> Mat.
>

--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals David Mar 12, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> Im not sure yet,
> I will be trying to track them down this winter, if I find them I
will let
> the list know.
> You could try amazon.com ??
> Lee

Thanks.
Tried amazon - zip
Barely anything on abseiling let alone canyoning :(

Dave :)
Fw: Fw: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning on the weekend Matthew Black Mar 12, 2001
Dave,

The ' young girl ' (13yrs old) made it fine. The way we 'bridged' the
'whirlpool' was quite simple. Using your hands as extra pressure points,
these appear to be well used, you move one limb at a time putting most of
your weight on your hands as there aren't many foot holds. On the right side
there is a good toe hold on a ledge about water level or slightly under in
this case. The left foot goes on a sort of concave foothold about 30cm above
the 'whirlpool', more useful for balance than anything else. The right then
moves up to in front of your thigh. Then there is the obvious step about
3/4's up for the left foot, the rest is elementary. I stood here on the
step, one foot either side of the main flow. The water was about 12cm or so
deep coming over the step. Then as each person came up looking for the next
rock to brace on they grabbed my hand instead. And up and over. Basically
staying out of the main current made it all possible. Going down stream, go
with the flow but upstream you bypass as much as possible.

I've done Bowens Creek Nth Arm Lower Section too, nice but would not
consider going there on days like Sunday.

Mat
----- Original Message -----
From: David Noble <dnoble@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyoning on the weekend


> Matthew Black wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Just to let you know, on Saturday 10th Mar, I took a party of 4 inc
myself
> > (2-6 canyons or so experience each for the others, but they had fairly
good
> > abseil experience) through Coachwood expecting to do Rocky Creek in
reverse,
> > but having an alternate backout plan using the big bend exit. We got to
the
> > first abseil in Coachwood and decided to go past the point of no return.
> > Great fun had by all in the abseils down the water falls. When we hit
Rocky
> > Creek, I noticed the obvious high water, stopped at the normal Rocky
Creek
> > turn around point and thought about the whirlpool, deliberating for a
few
> > mins, then a group came through advising that they had quite some
difficulty
> > at the whirlpool (a pushed under, even a head first job, if I remember
> > correctly), Hmm. Decided to check it out, and if it was as they said we
> > would turn back and go for the big bend exit. When we got there the
volume
> > was about 1/2 what we were lead to believe (but it was enough to cause
> > problems to anyone inexperienced) we bridged the whirlpool quite
> > successfully no mishaps, the slippery log posed no problem as well. Back
to
> > the car park.
>
> Mat - you must have been in the party we saw (we were setting up
> practice abseil ropes on the cliffs below the car park) on saturday
> afternoon - about 4 ish. We were wondering how the small girl in your
> party managed on the "whirlpool" section?
>
> In the other party that went through the canyon earlier - was a friend
> of mine leading a party of his surfing mates - so they may have been
> used to "big water". I heard that one guy got jammed in head first -
> with his pack caught under the water holding him down. When he managed
> to extracate himself - he saw one of his mates jump in and only saw some
> feet sticking out of the pool. Others in the party had to pull him out.
> >
> > I looked at the weather on Sunday and said no way hosea.
>
> Yes - we camped at Leura - and it rained pretty continuously all night -
> and quite heavily in the morning. We cancelled all canyoning plans for
> Sunday.
>
> Some canyons - such as those in the Gardens of Stone would never flash
> flood since their catchments are too small - but all of the beter known
> canyons would have been out of the question. I'm surprised people even
> went down the track at Bowens Ck.
>
> Dave
> >
> > Mat.
> >
>
> --
> --------------------------
> David Noble
> dnoble@...
> http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Canyon Accident Roberto.Schenone@lia.it Mar 12, 2001
Could someone forward the e-mail with the http link to the australian accident
report by Nigel(???), I accidentally cancelled the msg.

Ciao

Roberto
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Poco Loco Adventures Mar 12, 2001
The French technical manual (very complete tech stuff) has ISBN nr.
2-900894-08-5
A German one (not only tech but also orientation, weather etc) is ISBN
3-7633-6007-7
The best Spanish one I don't know because Rich has got my copy....

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: David <tronnort@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:15 AM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> > Thanks for your kind words Lowen,
> > Its was great to hear from you, Rich certainly had a great time
> with you and
> > Leonard. Hopefully he will be able to run some training courses
> next time he
> > returns to Australia, lets also hope that his Canyoning technical
> manual
> > comes out soon. The international technical manuals that he had
> (Spanish,
> > French, german and English) were pretty good, some interesting
> approaches to
> > similar problems that we have.
> > I look forward to meeting you one day Lowen.
> > Regards,
> > Lee
>
> Where can these technical manuals be found?, would love to get my
> hands something like that. Anyone know of any others?, or books?, web
> based ones would be nice.
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyon Accident David Noble Mar 12, 2001
Roberto.Schenone@... wrote:
>
> Could someone forward the e-mail with the http link to the australian accident
> report by Nigel(???), I accidentally cancelled the msg.
>
> Ciao
>
> Roberto

Look at:

http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/canyoningnews.html

for a report on the Australian Canyoning fatality.

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals David Mar 12, 2001
Thanks.
But unfortunately I only speak English :(

Dave :)

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Poco Loco Adventures" <pocoloco@s...> wrote:
> The French technical manual (very complete tech stuff) has ISBN nr.
> 2-900894-08-5
> A German one (not only tech but also orientation, weather etc) is
ISBN
> 3-7633-6007-7
> The best Spanish one I don't know because Rich has got my copy....
>
> Koen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David <tronnort@y...>
> To: <OzCanyons@y...>
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:15 AM
> Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
>
> > --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> > > Thanks for your kind words Lowen,
> > > Its was great to hear from you, Rich certainly had a great time
> > with you and
> > > Leonard. Hopefully he will be able to run some training courses
> > next time he
> > > returns to Australia, lets also hope that his Canyoning
technical
> > manual
> > > comes out soon. The international technical manuals that he had
> > (Spanish,
> > > French, german and English) were pretty good, some interesting
> > approaches to
> > > similar problems that we have.
> > > I look forward to meeting you one day Lowen.
> > > Regards,
> > > Lee
> >
> > Where can these technical manuals be found?, would love to get my
> > hands something like that. Anyone know of any others?, or books?,
web
> > based ones would be nice.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Dave :)
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Poco Loco Adventures Mar 12, 2001
You'll have to wait for Rich's book then. You just missed your chance to
chain him to a tree and a laptop to make him finish it.

----- Original Message -----
From: David <tronnort@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:00 AM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> Thanks.
> But unfortunately I only speak English :(
>
> Dave :)
>
> --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Poco Loco Adventures" <pocoloco@s...> wrote:
> > The French technical manual (very complete tech stuff) has ISBN nr.
> > 2-900894-08-5
> > A German one (not only tech but also orientation, weather etc) is
> ISBN
> > 3-7633-6007-7
> > The best Spanish one I don't know because Rich has got my copy....
> >
> > Koen
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: David <tronnort@y...>
> > To: <OzCanyons@y...>
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:15 AM
> > Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
> >
> >
> > > --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> > > > Thanks for your kind words Lowen,
> > > > Its was great to hear from you, Rich certainly had a great time
> > > with you and
> > > > Leonard. Hopefully he will be able to run some training courses
> > > next time he
> > > > returns to Australia, lets also hope that his Canyoning
> technical
> > > manual
> > > > comes out soon. The international technical manuals that he had
> > > (Spanish,
> > > > French, german and English) were pretty good, some interesting
> > > approaches to
> > > > similar problems that we have.
> > > > I look forward to meeting you one day Lowen.
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Lee
> > >
> > > Where can these technical manuals be found?, would love to get my
> > > hands something like that. Anyone know of any others?, or books?,
> web
> > > based ones would be nice.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > Dave :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Lee Etherington Mar 12, 2001
Thanks Koen,
Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with the
current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon setups
in Australia...
Regards,
Lee
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Lee Etherington Mar 12, 2001
The pictures are the key, you can work out what they are describing by
looking at the pics. All the setups and methods are given in big colour
pictures similar to the Petzl catalogue. I don't speak the language either
but it is surprising how much you can understand.
Lee
From: David [mailto:tronnort@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 10:00 AM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals

Thanks.
But unfortunately I only speak English :(

Dave :)

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Poco Loco Adventures" <pocoloco@s...> wrote:
> The French technical manual (very complete tech stuff) has ISBN nr.
> 2-900894-08-5
> A German one (not only tech but also orientation, weather etc) is
ISBN
> 3-7633-6007-7
> The best Spanish one I don't know because Rich has got my copy....
>
> Koen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David <tronnort@y...>
> To: <OzCanyons@y...>
> Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 6:15 AM
> Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
>
> > --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> > > Thanks for your kind words Lowen,
> > > Its was great to hear from you, Rich certainly had a great time
> > with you and
> > > Leonard. Hopefully he will be able to run some training courses
> > next time he
> > > returns to Australia, lets also hope that his Canyoning
technical
> > manual
> > > comes out soon. The international technical manuals that he had
> > (Spanish,
> > > French, german and English) were pretty good, some interesting
> > approaches to
> > > similar problems that we have.
> > > I look forward to meeting you one day Lowen.
> > > Regards,
> > > Lee
> >
> > Where can these technical manuals be found?, would love to get my
> > hands something like that. Anyone know of any others?, or books?,
web
> > based ones would be nice.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Dave :)
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Poco Loco Adventures Mar 12, 2001
Alpine butterfly knot ?!?

Tell me more... pleaasse ?

Out of the technical point of view, I think the French book is best, it
bundles every imaginable technique and states that for stuff like weather,
geology, oriëntation etc. you should seek out books or courses which
specialise in that particular area, just like this manual specialises in
canyoning techniques.

The other books want to cover all these subject in the same space, so
something has to give.

I like the stories in the Spanish book when looking back at the (oh so
familiar) mistakes made when first starting out.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:37 AM
Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> Thanks Koen,
> Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with
the
> current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
> Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon setups
> in Australia...
> Regards,
> Lee
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Poco Loco Adventures Mar 12, 2001
Lee, another thing:

You mentioned an English (American, Australian ?) canyoning manual ?
Can you give me more info on this, in spite of your advice to forget about
it - I've never come across a handbook from which I haven't learned things
(good or bad...).

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:37 AM
Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> Thanks Koen,
> Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with
the
> current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
> Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon setups
> in Australia...
> Regards,
> Lee
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Lee Etherington Mar 12, 2001
The English book is American, by some guy that Rich knows but basically it
states on the cover that it has all the answers, technical advice and
techniques but inside it only touches on most things and at a very
introductory level, basically I could have written it with some experience
and some common sense... Rich states that it is a good 'primer' for anyone
wanting to learn about canyoneering. Im sure when he is back in town he'll
fill us all in on the title.
The alpine butterfly is an inline knot that we use to link a looped rope
together to form two separate lines. We also use it for setting an
anchor/redundancy link on the belay line. Im not sure how to describe it
other than to tie it you just put three loopes over your hand, the third
loop between the first two and then pull the loop closest to your finger
tips around the back and through the remaining two loops. It is then set by
pulling on both strands of rope. The loop that sticks out forms your anchor
point. We tie two of these on each side of a tree/'anchor and link them with
carabiners to set up a basic top belay system with two individual strands
from one rope. Rich said that you Spanish guys would hate that set up! What
do you use for a similar situation?
lee

-----Original Message-----
From: Poco Loco Adventures [mailto:pocoloco@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:58 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals

Lee, another thing:

You mentioned an English (American, Australian ?) canyoning manual ?
Can you give me more info on this, in spite of your advice to forget about
it - I've never come across a handbook from which I haven't learned things
(good or bad...).

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:37 AM
Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> Thanks Koen,
> Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with
the
> current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
> Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon setups
> in Australia...
> Regards,
> Lee
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals John Shadlow Mar 13, 2001
I am surprised that there is such ignorance of the Alpine Butterfly!! As an
old caver versed in the ways of SRT (single rope technique) the Alpine
Butterfly is stock in trade. . Its main advantage is that the two strands of
rope emerging from the knot are at 180 degrees to one another rather than
emerging in the same direction as in a figure-of-eight for example. This
makes it a good mid-rope knot as it has greater strength than a
figure-of-eight if it is loaded awkwardly. In other words, whereas a Figure
of Eight can only safely be loaded 2 ways an Alpine Butterfly can be loaded
3 ways making it ideal for tying between primary and secondary anchor
points.






John

-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Etherington [mailto:localfocus@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 10:37 AM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals

Thanks Koen,
Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with the
current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon setups
in Australia...
Regards,
Lee




To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Poco Loco Adventures Mar 13, 2001
Thanks for the info about the manual, Lee. I'll pull on Rich's sleeve to see
what it's all about.

About the Butterfly knot : we use it like John said to make an intermediate
anchor point (if the anchor itself is too high up to clip your lifeline
into, to tighten a guiding rope without rope clamps or prussiks etc).

On each rappel with a double rope we tie a knot (using both strands at once)
which we connect with a carabiner to the anchor, thus creating two seperate
strands ("company policy").
I myself use a 8 knot to do this, two of my collegues do it with the
butterfly and a third - and this is interesting - insists of putting a
butterfly but doesn't clip it in the anchor. He reasons that if something
happens he just has to undo/cut the part of the rope which passes through
the anchor, with the bight of the butterfly ready to accept the back-up rope
to lower everything down - something you can also do with your setup.

This said, last year we almost completely forgot about knots to do this and
switched to a shunt.
Advantages: after each person down you let the rope slip a little through
the shunt, creating different contact points with the rock. This has
increased the lifespan of our ropes big time but has several drawbacks : you
have to take great care when loading the strands separately . Even with
identical rope, one strand sometimes slips through. That and it's another
piece of equipment to take along.
We're now experimenting with another, much simpler device which can handle
different diameter ropes.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 5:17 AM
Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> The English book is American, by some guy that Rich knows but basically it
> states on the cover that it has all the answers, technical advice and
> techniques but inside it only touches on most things and at a very
> introductory level, basically I could have written it with some experience
> and some common sense... Rich states that it is a good 'primer' for anyone
> wanting to learn about canyoneering. Im sure when he is back in town he'll
> fill us all in on the title.
> The alpine butterfly is an inline knot that we use to link a looped rope
> together to form two separate lines. We also use it for setting an
> anchor/redundancy link on the belay line. Im not sure how to describe it
> other than to tie it you just put three loopes over your hand, the third
> loop between the first two and then pull the loop closest to your finger
> tips around the back and through the remaining two loops. It is then set
by
> pulling on both strands of rope. The loop that sticks out forms your
anchor
> point. We tie two of these on each side of a tree/'anchor and link them
with
> carabiners to set up a basic top belay system with two individual strands
> from one rope. Rich said that you Spanish guys would hate that set up!
What
> do you use for a similar situation?
> lee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Poco Loco Adventures [mailto:pocoloco@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:58 PM
> To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
> Lee, another thing:
>
> You mentioned an English (American, Australian ?) canyoning manual ?
> Can you give me more info on this, in spite of your advice to forget about
> it - I've never come across a handbook from which I haven't learned things
> (good or bad...).
>
> Koen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
> To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:37 AM
> Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
>
> > Thanks Koen,
> > Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with
> the
> > current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
> > Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon
setups
> > in Australia...
> > Regards,
> > Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Canyoning Sunday David Stuckey Mar 11, 2001
Did Heart Attack on Sunday, no worries whatsoever although probably not a
canyon subject to big increases in water level due to size of canyon and
small catchment area.

Water was up about 200 mm, barely worth mentioning really.

Great day out!

Sick of friends ringing me asking if I'm okay....

Regards

David Stuckey
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals James Shadlow Mar 13, 2001

 
hi everybody

we tend to use the alpine butterfly for our main anchor point as it can be loaded in 3 directions. as  for the petzl shunt, i have seen them used asa self belay device, but neveras a anchor point. when i saw them as a belay device i thought that they were actually dangerous as you had to hold them with one hand, and they were difficult to use if you needed to perform a recue.

James Shadlow 

Thanks for the info about the manual, Lee. I'll pull on Rich's sleeve to see
what it's all about.

About the Butterfly knot : we use it like John said to make an intermediate
anchor point (if the anchor itself is too high up to clip your lifeline
into, to tighten a guiding rope without rope clamps or prussiks etc).

On each rappel with a double rope we tie a knot (using both strands at once)
which we connect with a carabiner to the anchor, thus creating two seperate
strands ("company policy").
I myself use a 8 knot to do this, two of my collegues do it with the
butterfly and a third - and this is interesting - insists of putting a
butterfly but doesn't clip it in the anchor. He reasons that if something
happens he just has to undo/cut the part of the rope which passes through
the anchor, with the bight of the butterfly ready to accept the back-up rope
to lower everything down - something you can also do with your setup.

This said, last year we almost completely forgot about knots to do this and
switched to a shunt.
Advantages: after each person down you let the rope slip a little through
the shunt, creating different contact points with the rock. This has
increased the lifespan of our ropes big time but has several drawbacks : you
have to take great care when loading the strands separately . Even with
identical rope, one strand sometimes slips through. That and it's another
piece of equipment to take along.
We're now experimenting with another, much simpler device which can handle
different diameter ropes.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 5:17 AM
Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> The English book is American, by some guy that Rich knows but basically it
> states on the cover that it has all the answers, technical advice and
> techniques but inside it only touches on most things and at a very
> introductory level, basically I could have written it with some experience
> and some common sense... Rich states that it is a good 'primer' for anyone
> wanting to learn about canyoneering. Im sure when he is back in town he'll
> fill us all in on the title.
> The alpine butterfly is an inline knot that we use to link a looped rope
> together to form two separate lines. We also use it for setting an
> anchor/redundancy link on the belay line. Im not sure how to describe it
> other than to tie it you just put three loopes over your hand, the third
> loop between the first two and then pull the loop closest to your finger
> tips around the back and through the remaining two loops. It is then set
by
> pulling on both strands of rope. The loop that sticks out forms your
anchor
> point. We tie two of these on each side of a tree/'anchor and link them
with
> carabiners to set up a basic top belay system with two individual strands
> from one rope. Rich said that you Spanish guys would hate that set up!
What
> do you use for a similar situation?
> lee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Poco Loco Adventures [mailto:pocoloco@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:58 PM
> To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
> Lee, another thing:
>
> You mentioned an English (American, Australian ?) canyoning manual ?
> Can you give me more info on this, in spite of your advice to forget about
> it - I've never come across a handbook from which I haven't learned things
> (good or bad...).
>
> Koen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
> To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:37 AM
> Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
>
> > Thanks Koen,
> > Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with
> the
> > current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
> > Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon
setups
> > in Australia...
> > Regards,
> > Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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>
>
>



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Technical Manuals and Alpine Butterflies rcwild@wildernessmail.net Mar 13, 2001
G'day from Auckland

I see the Oz Canyons Group has been busy.

The book Lee was referring to as an English technical manual is called
"Canyoneering; Beginning to Advanced Techniques" by Chris Van
Tillburg. Like Koen, I believe I can always learn something from
everyone I meet and from every book I read. However, if you have done
more than two or three canyons, you probably already know as much as
you could possibly learn from Van Tillburg's book. The publisher asked
me to write an endorsement for the back of the book and all I could
think to say was "it is a good PRIMER". It will tell you what the
author thinks you should learn, but the book will not teach you.

I enjoyed my time in the Blue Mountains and feel that I learned
something from everyone I met. I must admit that I was quite surprised
at how much the alpine butterfly is used in Australian canyoning. As
mentioned in another post, it is a great know when loads in two or
three directions are expected. However, each time I saw it used by
canyoners, loads were always in only one direction. In such cases,
there are better options. One of these options is called a
"directional" or "in-line" figure eight. It is significantly stronger
than the butterfly.

I also noticed a lot of rigidity in how systems are set up. In
application, this rigidity left the leader with only one option in an
emergency - raise the person back to the top. This can be very
difficult to do, even with mechanical advantage such as a z-rig. In
most cases, I would prefer to use what we call a "contingency anchor".
It allows us to lower someone to the bottom very quickly.

My intent is to finish the book within the next couple of months. In
the meantime, we have posted a few very basic techniques on the ACA's
web site at http://www.canyoneering.net

Rich
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals Lee Etherington Mar 13, 2001
You can use directional figure of 8's to increase the strength of the knot
and decrease the strain on the rope.
lee
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: using a shunt as an anchor Poco Loco Adventures Mar 13, 2001
Years ago I bought a shunt only because it was on the materials list for my preparatory exam as a guide. I played around with it long enough to realise that it wasn't worth the hassle lugging it along: we never use any self belaying devices, as a rope clamp it has its drawbacks, you can't fall on it etc.
Last year we decided to always take the things along to see if we could limit rope damage. The results speak for itself, not nearly as much ropes were damaged during the season.
Setting it up as an anchor (on double rope) goes as follows: start with two identical ropes, clip the shunt on with the "beak" pointing down. Attach the shunt to the real anchor using two carabiners with a small sling between them (like you use when rock-climbing). This is very important because it allows you to position the shunt with the lever away from the rock. Also, when clipping the shunt to the anchor with just one biner, you often get a bad torsion on the biner. 
After each person down you just squeeze the lever and slide the rope through a bit (you have to start with a loop above the shunt or it's no use....), very safe, simple, easy and fast. You can do this just as well using knots but that's much more time consuming.
An added bonus is that when something goes wrong, you have an anchor point ready to lower everything down with the backup rope - attach the backup to the shunts' carabiner, undo or cut the main rope(s), cut the sling between the two carabiners and down goes everything. Make sure to make a knot in the main rope above the shunt because if the lever rubs against rock....
 
This said, we're looking at alternatives. It does a remarkable job clamping a double identical rope, with both strands loaded at the same time. On the other hand, slippage is common when you load each strand separately (when two persons each use one strand). When it slips in this situation it's not really very dangerous because you've still got that closed loop above the shunt (and you can stop it by squeezing the two strands together) but it certainly is not very comforting for the guy/girl on the rope ! 
Bad points too for time loss: you have to wait until both strands are unloaded before you can feed some rope through.
 
The solution we came up with is a special climber's "plaquette". It grabs two ropes of different diameters, you can charge them separately without slippage AND you can feed one rope through when the other is still under load. We just need to finalize some tests in "extreme" situations (very different diameters, dry rope, heavy loads and such) - above deep water, from a bridge, just to make sure... I suggest doing the same when trying these things out with your girlfriend as guinea pig.
 
Koen
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


hi everybody

we tend to use the alpine butterfly for our main anchor point as it can be loaded in 3 directions. as  for the petzl shunt, i have seen them used asa self belay device, but neveras a anchor point. when i saw them as a belay device i thought that they were actually dangerous as you had to hold them with one hand, and they were difficult to use if you needed to perform a recue.

James Shadlow 

Thanks for the info about the manual, Lee. I'll pull on Rich's sleeve to see
what it's all about.

About the Butterfly knot : we use it like John said to make an intermediate
anchor point (if the anchor itself is too high up to clip your lifeline
into, to tighten a guiding rope without rope clamps or prussiks etc).

On each rappel with a double rope we tie a knot (using both strands at once)
which we connect with a carabiner to the anchor, thus creating two seperate
strands ("company policy").
I myself use a 8 knot to do this, two of my collegues do it with the
butterfly and a third - and this is interesting - insists of putting a
butterfly but doesn't clip it in the anchor. He reasons that if something
happens he just has to undo/cut the part of the rope which passes through
the anchor, with the bight of the butterfly ready to accept the back-up rope
to lower everything down - something you can also do with your setup.

This said, last year we almost completely forgot about knots to do this and
switched to a shunt.
Advantages: after each person down you let the rope slip a little through
the shunt, creating different contact points with the rock. This has
increased the lifespan of our ropes big time but has several drawbacks : you
have to take great care when loading the strands separately . Even with
identical rope, one strand sometimes slips through. That and it's another
piece of equipment to take along.
We're now experimenting with another, much simpler device which can handle
different diameter ropes.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 5:17 AM
Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals


> The English book is American, by some guy that Rich knows but basically it!
> states on the cover that it has all the answers, technical advice and
> techniques but inside it only touches on most things and at a very
> introductory level, basically I could have written it with some experience
> and some common sense... Rich states that it is a good 'primer' for anyone
> wanting to learn about canyoneering. Im sure when he is back in town he'll
> fill us all in on the title.
> The alpine butterfly is an inline knot that we use to link a looped rope
> together to form two separate lines. We also use it for setting an
> anchor/redundancy link on the belay line. Im not sure how to describe it
> other than to tie it you just put three loopes over your hand, the third
> loop between the first two and then pull the loop closest to your finger
> tips around the back and through the remaining two loops. It is then set
by
> pulling on both strands of rope. The loop that sticks out forms your
anchor
> point. We tie two of these on each side of a tree/'anchor and link them
with
> carabiners to set up a basic top belay system with two individual strands
> from one rope. Rich said that you Spanish guys would hate that set up!
What
> do you use for a similar situation?
> lee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Poco Loco Adventures [mailto:pocoloco@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 1:58 PM
> To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
> Lee, another thing:
>
> You mentioned an English (American, Australian ?) canyoning manual ?
> Can you give me more info on this, in spite of your advice to forget about
> it - I've never come across a handbook from which I haven't learned things
> (good or bad...).
>
> Koen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Lee Etherington <localfocus@...>
> To: <Oz! Canyons@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 12:37 AM
> Subject: RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Canyons - Technical Manuals
>
>
> > Thanks Koen,
> > Yes, the Spanish one is the best, then the French one, don't bother with
> the
> > current English one. We need Rich to tell us the names of them.
> > Rich said you'd love our use of the Alpine Butterfly knot in canyon
setups
> > in Australia...
> > Regards,
> > Lee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
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> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
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New poll for OzCanyons OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com Mar 15, 2001
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
OzCanyons group:

What is the best canyoning shoe?

o Dunlop Volleys
o KT-26's
o Hiking boots
o Hi-tech runners
o Doesn't matter


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OzCanyons/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!
New poll for OzCanyons OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com Mar 15, 2001
Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
OzCanyons group:

What descender do you prefer?

o Rack
o Figure-8
o PittStop
o Pitton bar(s)
o Other


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OzCanyons/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!
Re: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons James Shadlow Mar 15, 2001

my favourite device would have to be the figure 8 setup the french style on double rope. for those who dont know, french abseiling is when you rig the '8instead of putting the loop over the little hole, you place the loop inside the carabiner. thus th rope goes into the '8 normally, then around the crab, then back out the '8 normally. this is deadly on single rope but on double rope it rocks. the other decive i like is a varible controller

James Shadlow



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Re: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons Flynn Mar 15, 2001
Yep value for money wise nothing beats the old figure 8.

I had always heard that these damage the rope, causing twists and fraying
but when I looked into to it the only real info I could find was a study
Quoted in Outdoor Australia which stated that while the Figure does put
"SLIGHTLY" more twist in the rope and cause the sheath to look more frayed
(thats the bit that looks nice) the straight through devices actually cause
"SLIGHTLY" more damage to the core (The bit that stops you plumetting to
the ground), more elongation, greater reduction in Ultimate Breaking
Strength, greater reduction in knottability... The study concluded that
while both types of devices cause damage the overall difference between the
two wasn't worth worrying about.

I've also had people tell me that you can't adjust the fiction in a figure
8 but there are 5 different ways to rig one to get more or less fiction.
The only disadvantages is you can't adjust it easily mid abseil.

Another device I picked up thats handy for double rope abseil (9mm-11mm
rope) is a "Robot" by Kong. It comes which a destruction sheet explaining
how it can be used as a descender, ascended, self belaying anchor and
rescue device. Not bad for around $50.

At 11:45 AM 3/15/01 -0800, you wrote:
> my favourite device would have to be the figure 8 setup the french style
>on double rope. for those who dont know, french abseiling is when you rig
>the '8instead of putting the loop over the little hole, you place the loop
>inside the carabiner. thus th rope goes into the '8 normally, then around
>the crab, then back out the '8 normally. this is deadly on single rope but
>on double rope it rocks. the other decive i like is a varible controller
>James Shadlow
>
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Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
RE: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons Cathi Humphrey-Hood Mar 15, 2001
Hi People,

Hmmm, interesting piece of info about the straight through devices causing
more core damage (even if only "slightly"!). I use a Pit-Stop to avoid rope
tangles and because it's easier to get the rope out of it when treading
water. I would query the "slightly" bit on the rope twisting though. I have
a couple of ropes that have had figure 8's used on them and one that has had
straight through devices only, and the figure 8 ropes twist in knots all
over the place in comparison to the other one, which is still quite straight
and much easier to coil and to throw.

On the other hand, I learnt to abseil on a figure 8 and still find it the
most 'comfortable' device, for speed control etc. I always carry one as a
back-up device.

Cheers,
Cathi

-----Original Message-----
From: Flynn [mailto:cflynn@...]
Sent: Friday, 16 March 2001 13:07
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons


Yep value for money wise nothing beats the old figure 8.

I had always heard that these damage the rope, causing twists and fraying
but when I looked into to it the only real info I could find was a study
Quoted in Outdoor Australia which stated that while the Figure does put
"SLIGHTLY" more twist in the rope and cause the sheath to look more frayed
(thats the bit that looks nice) the straight through devices actually cause
"SLIGHTLY" more damage to the core (The bit that stops you plumetting to
the ground), more elongation, greater reduction in Ultimate Breaking
Strength, greater reduction in knottability... The study concluded that
while both types of devices cause damage the overall difference between the
two wasn't worth worrying about.

I've also had people tell me that you can't adjust the fiction in a figure
8 but there are 5 different ways to rig one to get more or less fiction.
The only disadvantages is you can't adjust it easily mid abseil.

Another device I picked up thats handy for double rope abseil (9mm-11mm
rope) is a "Robot" by Kong. It comes which a destruction sheet explaining
how it can be used as a descender, ascended, self belaying anchor and
rescue device. Not bad for around $50.

At 11:45 AM 3/15/01 -0800, you wrote:
> my favourite device would have to be the figure 8 setup the french style
>on double rope. for those who dont know, french abseiling is when you rig
>the '8instead of putting the loop over the little hole, you place the loop
>inside the carabiner. thus th rope goes into the '8 normally, then around
>the crab, then back out the '8 normally. this is deadly on single rope but
>on double rope it rocks. the other decive i like is a varible controller
>James Shadlow
>
>Do You Yahoo!?
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> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
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Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
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######################################################################
This message is intended for the use of the party to whom it is addressed and may contain information which is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this communication in error, please notify us by telephone and either return the original message or ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this communication and its attachments by anyone other than the party to whom it is addressed is strictly prohibited.
######################################################################
Re: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons Flynn Mar 15, 2001
They weren't on the list but I've done most of my canyoning the last couple
of years in a pair of Teva sandles which work well though not as coast
effective as volleys (Stock up on the old white canvas one while you can.
I've heard they're not going to be made anymore and the newer style just
doesn't have the grip)



At 01:44 PM 3/15/01 -0000, you wrote:
>
> A new poll has been created for the
> OzCanyons group:
>
> What is the best canyoning shoe?
>
> o Dunlop Volleys
> o KT-26's
> o Hiking boots
> o Hi-tech runners
> o Doesn't matter
>
>
> To vote, please visit the following web page:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OzCanyons/polls
>
> Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
> not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
> web site listed above.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>Click here for Classmates.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
RE: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons Cathi Humphrey-Hood Mar 15, 2001
Please forgive my ignorance of such heady fashion matters - could someone
please tell me what, besides a piece of artillery and a strain of bacteria,
a "KT-26" is?

And if it isn't a wetsuit boot, someone needs to add them to the voting list
- because there isn't an option on the voting page for "other" and I threw
out the Volleys years ago.

Regards,
Cathi

-----Original Message-----
From: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com [mailto:OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, 16 March 2001 0:45
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons



Enter your vote today! A new poll has been created for the
OzCanyons group:

What is the best canyoning shoe?

o Dunlop Volleys
o KT-26's
o Hiking boots
o Hi-tech runners
o Doesn't matter


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OzCanyons/polls

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!








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OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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This message is intended for the use of the party to whom it is addressed and may contain information which is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this communication in error, please notify us by telephone and either return the original message or ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this communication and its attachments by anyone other than the party to whom it is addressed is strictly prohibited.
######################################################################
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-RE: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons Mark.Willetts@defence.gov.au Mar 15, 2001
G'Day,

I've found the '8' does twist line. I prefer a rack for the convenience.
Connect it to the harness at the start and leave it on (not having to disconnect
and reconnect hardware is a big plus). I wear an old pair of shorts over the
harness and carry the rack by clipping the top, via a light krab, to a gear loop
on the harness and tucking the lot inside my shorts.

Cheers, Mark W
(lurker)
RE: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons snail Mar 15, 2001
On Fri, 16 Mar 2001, Cathi Humphrey-Hood wrote:
> Please forgive my ignorance of such heady fashion matters - could someone
> please tell me what, besides a piece of artillery and a strain of bacteria,
> a "KT-26" is?

ISTR that they're also made by Dunlop although the sole tends to
slip more for canyoning. There was a bit of discussion on this a
while back in <news:aus.bushwalking>. They sounded like a bit like
a Volley but with more foot support.
--
snail | snail@... | http://www.careless.net.au/~snail/
I'm a man of my word. In the end, that's all there is. - Avon
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-RE: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons John R. Shadlow Mar 16, 2001
Just to throw in my two cents worth:

I learnt on an '8, and am happy using it. Nowdays, I prefer a whale-
tail, due to not having to take it off the harness to clip and unclip
from the rope. Also, I found that the whale-tail is easier to tie off
mid-cliff. Unfortunately, the whale-tail is heavier than the '8, but
does take a beating. I usually carry an '8 for backup.

Cheer,
John R. Shadlow

> G'Day,
>
> I've found the '8' does twist line. I prefer a rack for the
> convenience.Connect it to the harness at the start and leave it on
> (not having to disconnect
> and reconnect hardware is a big plus). I wear an old pair of
> shorts over the
> harness and carry the rack by clipping the top, via a light krab,
> to a gear loop
> on the harness and tucking the lot inside my shorts.
>
> Cheers, Mark W
> (lurker)
>
>
>
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>
>
RE: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-RE: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons John Shadlow Mar 16, 2001
My sons having thrown their bit it I may as well have my say too!!

I learnt to abseil semi classical but changed to cross crabs early on as it
was a bit safer!! Cross crabs also allowed me to abseil forwards will all
its joys of seeing where you go. I later joined the rush to Figure of Eight
only to discover that they are hard to tie off mid abseil and you run the
risk of getting Larks Footed going forwards (very embarrassing). Now I use a
Variable controller (sometimes called Sheriff or bug ) similar to a stitch
plate. I like this device as it works equally as well on single or double
rope, will stop dead real quick and is easy to tie off. It does have the
disadvantage of having to unhook to detach but if you hook it back up before
you pull the rope through there is no danger in losing it.

I think I have tried every possible device there is and for what is worth
here are my comments.

Petzl Shunt - OK but not with 2 ropes of unequal diameter
Petzl Stop - will not completely STOP - maybe I am too gravity challenged
these days
Mini Rack - Too fast on 9mm or single 11mm great on double 11mm
Whaletail - Rolls Royce - but who want a truck , it is easy to adjust mid
abseil or take off without losing
Munter (Italian Hitch) on a single crab - cheap, cheerful and only for the
brave
Grigri - a great device but not double rope, can be used to ascend as well
as descend, great for caving
Rack - see whaletail

John


-----Original Message-----
From: John R. Shadlow [mailto:shadjr@...]
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 7:07 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-RE: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons

Just to throw in my two cents worth:

I learnt on an '8, and am happy using it. Nowdays, I prefer a whale-
tail, due to not having to take it off the harness to clip and unclip
from the rope. Also, I found that the whale-tail is easier to tie off
mid-cliff. Unfortunately, the whale-tail is heavier than the '8, but
does take a beating. I usually carry an '8 for backup.

Cheer,
John R. Shadlow

> G'Day,
>
> I've found the '8' does twist line. I prefer a rack for the
> convenience.Connect it to the harness at the start and leave it on
> (not having to disconnect
> and reconnect hardware is a big plus). I wear an old pair of
> shorts over the
> harness and carry the rack by clipping the top, via a light krab,
> to a gear loop
> on the harness and tucking the lot inside my shorts.
>
> Cheers, Mark W
> (lurker)
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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Fw: [canyons group] Abseiling equiptment Poco Loco Adventures Mar 16, 2001
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hmoon@...
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: [canyons group] Abseiling equiptment


Hey Poco

Not sure why the pdf won't open for you. Here's a screen shot - hope you can see it!

hank





"Poco Loco Adventures" <pocoloco@...>

03/15/01 04:22 PM

       
        To:        <hmoon@...>
        cc:        
        Subject:        Re: [canyons group] Abseiling equiptment



The dude is popular in Belgium but I'm not cruel enough to ruin your carpet, but after sending me an unreadable file I've got no other choice....
 
----- Original Message -----
From: hmoon@...
To: rincon
Cc: pocoloco@... ; Roberto.Schenone@...
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2001 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: [canyons group] Abseiling equiptment


RC + others


Here ya go. Guess "The Big Lebowski" ain't too popular in Belgium and Italy...not sure what part of the "bigplanet" RC is from.


hank





rincon <rincon@...>

03/14/01 06:02 PM

       
       To:        
hmoon@...
       cc:        

       Subject:        Re: [canyons group] Abseiling equiptment




Yes that would be sweet.Thanks

--

RC

----- Original Message -----
From:
hmoon@...
To:
rincon@...
Sent:
Wednesday, March 14, 2001 11:40 AM
Subject:
Re: [canyons group] Abseiling equiptment


RC


Not on the web yet, but I have some draft drawings from the technical notice in pdf form I can send to you.


hank

rincon@...

03/14/01 10:17 AM
Please respond to canyons

       
      To:        
canyons@yahoogroups.com
      cc:        

      Subject:        Re: [canyons group] Abseiling equiptment





Do you have a link to where we can see the Petzl PIRANA.
--
RC

--- In canyons@y..., hmoon@p... wrote:
> <shameless - OK a little shame - plug>
>
> The latest in canyon descenders is the Petzl PIRANA, a descender
designed
> specifically for canyoning. The ATC certainly is no piker, but the
rubber
> thingie and cute little horns of the PIRANA are fun to fondle and
offer
> many friction settings and a loss prevention feature. Looks kinda
like a
> piranha to boot!
>
> </plug>
>
> hank "works for Petzl" moon
>
>
>
>
>
>



Re: [OzCanyons] Descenders Poco Loco Adventures Mar 16, 2001
About Kong's Robot : we tested it but found a few serious drawbacks.

We have this 1-2-3-4 drill when arriving at and starting a rappel: first
clip in your safety line, then put your descender, THEN remove slack and put
weight on the descender to see if everything is OK (while still attached
with your safety), and finally unclipping your safety and start the descent.
Try this with a Robot and start cursing..... the very movement of trying to
remove slack blocks it and you have to start feeding and fumbling the rope
through with both hands - not very practical and for a novice next to
impossible.
Second problem is that novices make a lot of mistakes while rappelling. The
most common one is actually a series of mishaps which start by not going
backward enough - putting weight on their feet - slipping and THEN moving
their braking hand with the rope from hip position to about shoulder height
to stop them from crashing into the rock.
This movement unclips the rope (when using one strand) from behind the
little arm on the Robot and they have to continue with greatly reduced
braking power - bad.
For the rest it's a great little descender with very a nice "braking touch".

Funny you brought this up because on the American canyons group we're
discussing the same thing. One of the members (who works for Petzl) showed
us the new canyon-special descender Petzl has in the pipeline. It's called
the Pirana and looks like a cross between a figure of 8 and.... yes, the
Robot - it seems with the advantage of both: versatility of an 8,
modulation of braking power "on the go" of the Robot without the above
drawbacks.
Let's see if it keeps it's promises.

I'll forward the drawings on a separate message

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: Flynn <cflynn@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, March 16, 2001 3:06 AM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] New poll for OzCanyons


> Yep value for money wise nothing beats the old figure 8.
>
> I had always heard that these damage the rope, causing twists and fraying
> but when I looked into to it the only real info I could find was a study
> Quoted in Outdoor Australia which stated that while the Figure does put
> "SLIGHTLY" more twist in the rope and cause the sheath to look more frayed
> (thats the bit that looks nice) the straight through devices actually
cause
> "SLIGHTLY" more damage to the core (The bit that stops you plumetting to
> the ground), more elongation, greater reduction in Ultimate Breaking
> Strength, greater reduction in knottability... The study concluded that
> while both types of devices cause damage the overall difference between
the
> two wasn't worth worrying about.
>
> I've also had people tell me that you can't adjust the fiction in a figure
> 8 but there are 5 different ways to rig one to get more or less fiction.
> The only disadvantages is you can't adjust it easily mid abseil.
>
> Another device I picked up thats handy for double rope abseil (9mm-11mm
> rope) is a "Robot" by Kong. It comes which a destruction sheet explaining
> how it can be used as a descender, ascended, self belaying anchor and
> rescue device. Not bad for around $50.
>
> At 11:45 AM 3/15/01 -0800, you wrote:
> > my favourite device would have to be the figure 8 setup the french
style
> >on double rope. for those who dont know, french abseiling is when you rig
> >the '8instead of putting the loop over the little hole, you place the
loop
> >inside the carabiner. thus th rope goes into the '8 normally, then around
> >the crab, then back out the '8 normally. this is deadly on single rope
but
> >on double rope it rocks. the other decive i like is a varible controller
> >James Shadlow
> >
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices!
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> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> Flynn
>
> Don't forget to check out our webpage!
> <http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
> <cflynn@...>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Yet another rescue cflynn@lisp.com.au Mar 18, 2001
Apparently there was a canyoner rescued from a canyon near Mt Tomah
(Claustral?) on Friday night, 16th.

From what I heard on the local radio rescue squads were notified when
the man failed to return home at the appointed time. All the report
said was that he had become tangled in ropes on an abseil and needed
to be rescued.
Flash flooding canyons query derek_hazell@yahoo.com Mar 18, 2001
Does a list of flash-flooding resistant canyons exist? Such a list
would be great for beginner or less experienced canyoners (like me)
to consult in the event of risky weather...
Re: [OzCanyons] Flash flooding canyons query Poco Loco Adventures Mar 18, 2001
Canyons are huge gutters, so flash floods are mostly inherent.
Exceptions are canyons were the waterflow changed course (moved or went
underground) or because the canyon was formed not by rainwater or melt-off
in a big bassin,
but by a source - which later on dried up (and stays dry after heavy rains).
This is not very common but they do exist.
In the central Pyrenees I know of a handful of such places. The most curious
ones sound hollow when you stomp on the rock, quite unnerving sometimes !
In another one the water formed first a cave and then alongside a deeper
canyon. You can do a nice loop going up the cave and going down the canyon
(after really heavy rains the cave also floods).

This said, you always have the risk of lightning and certainly rock-fall in
every canyon during a storm so when there's risk of thunderstorm I prefer
any bar above the "safest" of canyons.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: <derek_hazell@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2001 3:22 PM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Flash flooding canyons query


> Does a list of flash-flooding resistant canyons exist? Such a list
> would be great for beginner or less experienced canyoners (like me)
> to consult in the event of risky weather...
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: Flash flooding canyons query David Mar 18, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., derek_hazell@y... wrote:
> Does a list of flash-flooding resistant canyons exist? Such a list
> would be great for beginner or less experienced canyoners (like me)
> to consult in the event of risky weather...

You should always treat every canyon as having the potential to flash
flood, but there are some that are much safer than others. If you are
a beginner then I can recommend Dalpura and the Grand Canyon. Dalpura
I did the other weekend after a week of full rain and heavy rain on
the day and the water level was higher than normal but I felt very
safe. Some canyons you just get a nice "safe" feeling (such as
dalpura), while others that are very narrow and deep make you feel
very nervous.
I agree it would be nice if some of the more experienced canyoners on
here could also recommend some and we could build up a list of
the "safer" canyons. Maybe add it to the "database" section so
everyone can access it easier?

Dave :)
Re: Yet another rescue rcwild@wildernessmail.net Mar 18, 2001
Found this on the internet a couple days ago. Any more details about
what happened?


"A helicopter rescue team is in the process of winching a man with
severe hypothermia out of a Blue Mountains canyon. The man, along
with other members of his canyoning party, have been trapped in
Claustral Canyon near Mount Tomah overnight. The alarm was raised
early this morning after another man undertaking a night expedition
in the canyon found the man caught in abseiling ropes.

He was freed and escorted to an exit point called Thunder Gorge where
he has been awaiting rescue. A spokesman for the NRMA Careflight
rescue helicopter says the man is delirious and has leg and arm
injuries."


Rich
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Yet another rescue Flynn Mar 18, 2001
I've been told there was yet another reported rescue over the weekend (A
woman winched out of a canyon). I didn't hear the report myself so I'm not
sure of any details


At 03:30 AM 3/19/01 -0000, you wrote:
> Found this on the internet a couple days ago. Any more details about
> what happened?
>
>
>"A helicopter rescue team is in the process of winching a man with
> severe hypothermia out of a Blue Mountains canyon. The man, along
> with other members of his canyoning party, have been trapped in
> Claustral Canyon near Mount Tomah overnight. The alarm was raised
> early this morning after another man undertaking a night expedition
> in the canyon found the man caught in abseiling ropes.
>
> He was freed and escorted to an exit point called Thunder Gorge where
> he has been awaiting rescue. A spokesman for the NRMA Careflight
> rescue helicopter says the man is delirious and has leg and arm
>"
>
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash flooding canyons query Flynn Mar 18, 2001
I'd be very careful in saying any canyon was safe for beginners in heavy
rain. Dave mentions Grand Canyon but I've seen this absolutely pumping and
wouldn't have liked to be inside it at the time.

Use common sense. If it's been raining all week, even just light drizzle,
the ground will be saturated making a flash flood situation even more
likely. If conditions are bad stay indoors. Heading out in risky weather is
just endangering yourself and those of the rescue parties.

At 11:05 PM 3/18/01 -0000, you wrote:
> --- In OzCanyons@y..., derek_hazell@y... wrote:
>> Does a list of flash-flooding resistant canyons exist? Such a list
>> would be great for beginner or less experienced canyoners (like me)
>> to consult in the event of risky weather...
>
> You should always treat every canyon as having the potential to flash
> flood, but there are some that are much safer than others. If you are
> a beginner then I can recommend Dalpura and the Grand Canyon. Dalpura
> I did the other weekend after a week of full rain and heavy rain on
> the day and the water level was higher than normal but I felt very
>"" feeling (such as
> dalpura), while others that are very narrow and deep make you feel
> very nervous.
> I agree it would be nice if some of the more experienced canyoners on
> here could also recommend some and we could build up a list of
>"""" section so
> everyone can access it easier?
>
> Dave :)
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Flash flooding canyons query David Mar 19, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
> I'd be very careful in saying any canyon was safe for beginners in
heavy
> rain. Dave mentions Grand Canyon but I've seen this absolutely
pumping and
> wouldn't have liked to be inside it at the time.
>
> Use common sense. If it's been raining all week, even just light
drizzle,
> the ground will be saturated making a flash flood situation even
more
> likely. If conditions are bad stay indoors. Heading out in risky
weather is
> just endangering yourself and those of the rescue parties.

Very true.
And that's always going to be a problem, it's so easy to say "don't
do a canyon if it's been/is raining" etc, and not too many people are
willing to stick their necks out and say "this one's safer than that
one" etc. How many of us actually do go out in supposed bad weather?.
If we didn't I dont think anyone would have gone out this year!
I'm not a really experienced canyoner, but I know what I'm doing,
don't take risks and have a lot of common sense. I've done some
canyons that I thought would be safe in the last couple of months in
what looked like "bad weather", but it turned out to be an awesome
fun day and completely safe. I backed my judgement and I was right.
There are obvious ones like Claustral etc that have bad reputations
for flash flooding, but how about some of you more experienced guys
giving some hints as to what ones you have done in bad weather and
seen no problems what so ever?
I'm sure there are SOME canyons out there that are MUCH safer than
others, and would really need very freakish weather to make it
unacceptably dangerous. Canyoning is a dangerous sport anyway, there
are always risks. If we all waited for a week of sunshine, a
cloudless day, and a perfect weather report we would never go
anywhere.
I'm trying to learn more just like the guy who posted the request,
I'd love to hear everyones opinion.

Regards
Dave :)
Re: Yet another rescue David Mar 19, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
> I've been told there was yet another reported rescue over the
weekend (A
> woman winched out of a canyon). I didn't hear the report myself so
I'm not
> sure of any details

I also heard something about that. Two Queenslanders.
I think it may have been at the Grand Canyon, because we were there
on Sat afternoon and we came out around 6pm and the only car left was
from a young QLD couple that went in just before us around lunch time.
Way too long to just do the grand canyon circuit.
From memory they had no packs or anything, just walked on in. As we
were driving out we heard the chopper overhead.

Dave :)
Canyoning training canyonz Mar 19, 2001
"Hi there canyoners from the South Pacific

Julien here, from Canyonz in Auckland. I just spent a week with Rich Carlson from the American Canyoneering Association. It was good showing Rich the local canyons and scenery, talking about training and techniques and having a bit of a break myself. I've been in touch with Rich for a while now and it was great to meet him face to face at last.

I thought I would share a few ideas with you, and I would greatly appreciate your feedback as well.

  • There are now two associations in the world that train canyoning guides to exactly the same standards, the European Commission of Canyoning and the American Association of Canyoneering. They appear to have reached a high level of competency, in that they have developed ethics and techniques that are purely adapted to canyoning, instead of being solely derived from mountaineering, rockclimbing or caving.
  • Both associations offer guide courses in 2 stages, and stages 1 and 2 can be done in Europe or the States.
  • A USA guide with an ACA qualification will have his/her qualification recognised in Europe, and vice-versa. It means that a safety-conscious canyoning company in the States or in Europe wouldn't have a problem employing him/her.
  • Having Rich here was a great eye-opener and a great chance. His level of competency and skills, whether in dry or wet canyons, is simply impressive. But even more important, his long-term ideas (and dedication!) about canyoning in terms of training and qualification are very interesting. Soooo..... here's the idea:
How about organising a course similar to the ACA or CEC one, and asking Rich to be the instructor? The benefits of this would be:
  • Training to the best possible international standards
  • Training of instructors to CEC and ACA levels
  • Recognition by the CEC and the ACA
  • An international 'ticket' that would increase employment chances overseas
  • Links between NZ, Oz and the rest of the world canyoning community
  • More business from Europe and the States as your qualification is recognised
The great thing is this: for the first stage 1 and 2 courses, Rich is happy for us to cover his travelling expenses and won't charge us for instruction (as long as we provide coffee!). After some discussion, we agreed that it would be easier to reach a critical mass of people by trying to get together NZ and Oz canyoners and would-be guides, and do stage 1 in Oz and stage 2 in NZ, or maybe both stages in Oz, as there are more canyoners and canyoning companies out there. If each participant pays a share of  of Rich's costs (mainly airfare and coffee), it should be reasonable. Us Kiwis would have to fly over there, but what the heck, I've got a thick wetsuit, I'll swim! I really want to stress that this is a unique opportunity: The CEC and ACA together have trained hundreds of guides to the best professional level, they have the technical manuals and expertise, and maybe we'll get a discount on Rich's soon-to-be published technical canyoning book (har har!)

The aim of the courses would not to find out who is a good guide and who is a bad guide. So let's put our enormous egos aside (I'm French so I know about arrogance) and try to be the best guides! I believe that such a course does not necessarily compete with your existing training courses, but rather complement them. Rich could possibly do stage 1 and 2 as early as this Southern Hemisphere spring. We would need at least 10 participants to make this affordable for each person.

So what d'ya all think of that?
 

Julien Senamaud - CANYONZ

Re: [OzCanyons] Flash flooding canyons query David Noble Mar 19, 2001
derek_hazell@... wrote:
>
> Does a list of flash-flooding resistant canyons exist? Such a list
> would be great for beginner or less experienced canyoners (like me)
> to consult in the event of risky weather...
>
Some of this is common sense.

Some canyons would not flash flood - eg The Dry Canyon (also known as
"Wolgan View" canyon in a guidebook)

Some canyons are short and therefore safe - eg River Caves, Deep Pass Canyon

Some offer places to get out of the canyon to shelter and wait out
floods - Whungee Wheengee (and after a recent visit - even Bell Creek
offers this possibility in the lower contriction)

Some you can visit and check out - and if the water level is too high
then escape from (eg Claustral canyon - it is possible to climb out on
left or right near the abseils)

Some like "Why Don't We Do It In The Road" offer a choice of exit routes
that avoid big swims up the Gambe.

But - you do need to be careful in what you go down. Several times this
summer and once last summer - I have been in parties that have had to
suddenly change our plans due to sudden storms. "If in doubt - keep out"
is the best policy - especially in canyons that you have not been down before.

I would not regard The Grand Canyon as being a safe canyon (in terms of
flash flood potential)

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Flash-Flood canyons David Mar 19, 2001
How about a database of canyons that are know to have flash-flooded?
(or are very dangerous in bad weather)
If you have had first hand experience of one, or know of one, then
why not add it to the database (I've just created a database)
The more information we have, the safer it will be for everyone.

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Flash-Flood canyons David Noble Mar 19, 2001
David wrote:
>
> How about a database of canyons that are know to have flash-flooded?
> (or are very dangerous in bad weather)
> If you have had first hand experience of one, or know of one, then
> why not add it to the database (I've just created a database)
> The more information we have, the safer it will be for everyone.

I don't think this follows. If there is too much information - then a
lot of inexperienced people will think too many canyons are safe - and
venture down them without having the necessary experience or judgement.
It is not too difficult to look around - and see if there are any black
clouds around or if it is raining.

If people expect a database of canyon dangers, then they will also
expect tracks, bolted belay points etc.

I think it is better to be cautious in all canyons at all times. eg
would the database of canyon dangers have if canyon waterfalls can be
jumped? It is always wise to send someone down first to test the pool
befreo people jump (eg in Twister) - as logs do wash down from time to time.

Dave
>
> Dave :)

--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyoning training Isaacs Mar 19, 2001
> How about organising a course similar to the ACA or CEC one, and asking
> Rich to be the instructor? The benefits of this would be:
For something such as canyoning - if there are instructions & courses being
given, it is my opinion that the instructor should be someone local, with
local knowledge, and good knowledge of things that are specific to a
location.

This doesn't mean that others from afar, such as Rich wouldn't be able to
give useful input.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: Flash flooding canyons query rcwild@wildernessmail.net Mar 19, 2001
Rather than compiling a list of "safe" canyons, it would be better to
educate people on the variables that make one canyon more likely to
flood than another.

The biggest concern should be the size of the catchment. A canyon
that drains a large area of land might flood with a light rain while
another that drains a very small area doesn't flood, even in a
torrential downpour.

Another factor is the surface slope of the catchment area. If it is
steep, water will drain off of it faster than it can be absorbed into
the ground.

Also consider the permeability of the surface material and amount of
vegetation. One advantage the Blue Mountains has over the American
desert southwest. In southern Utah, there is much less vegetation to
slow down the runoff and the surface is sun-baked and non-porous.
Water is not absorbed, it runs directly into the canyons.

While visiting, I did a couple of canyons in the rain. But each time
I asked about the catchment first. The surface slope, vegetation and
surface material were obvious. We arrived at the trailhead to
Claustral with dark clouds looming overhead. I was told that the
catchment was quite large. We went to Jenolan Caves instead.

I uploaded a copy of the ACA's Canyons info booklet to your file
section. The primary focus is Safety and Ethics. The section on
safety includes more details about flash floods. It is copyrighted,
but you have our permission to use it in anyway that will help you
promote safety and ethics in your canyons.

Rich
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyoning training canyonz Mar 19, 2001
Totally agree on that. Local knowledge is essential. I'm talking more about
techniques.

Julien

Isaacs wrote:

> > How about organising a course similar to the ACA or CEC one, and asking
> > Rich to be the instructor? The benefits of this would be:
> For something such as canyoning - if there are instructions & courses being
> given, it is my opinion that the instructor should be someone local, with
> local knowledge, and good knowledge of things that are specific to a
> location.
>
> This doesn't mean that others from afar, such as Rich wouldn't be able to
> give useful input.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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Re: Flash-Flood canyons David Mar 19, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., David Noble <dnoble@o...> wrote:
> I don't think this follows. If there is too much information - then
a
> lot of inexperienced people will think too many canyons are safe -
and
> venture down them without having the necessary experience or
judgement.
> It is not too difficult to look around - and see if there are any
black
> clouds around or if it is raining.
>
> If people expect a database of canyon dangers, then they will also
> expect tracks, bolted belay points etc.
>
> I think it is better to be cautious in all canyons at all times. eg
> would the database of canyon dangers have if canyon waterfalls can
be
> jumped? It is always wise to send someone down first to test the
pool
> befreo people jump (eg in Twister) - as logs do wash down from time
to time.

No one said anything about a database of canyon dangers. The original
poster wanted to know which canyons were safer. He's obviously keen
and wants to minimise the danger when he goes canyoning just as most
of us do.
As far as I'm concerned there are two dangers in canyoning:
1) Stupid people with no common sense. You will always get these
people it's a fact of life. But my guess is that they don't read
newsgroups like these. I would like to think that people that go to
the trouble of reading a newsgroup like this are keen and responsible.
2) Not enough information. Eg, Not enough information on which
canyons are more dangerous to do in bad weather, which ones are
easier to navigate than others etc. The result is that people get in
over their heads and need to be rescued or worse. I think the more
experienced canyoners can help this cause a great deal if they shared
their knowledge and experiences. There are only 74 people or
thereabouts on this group, so it's not like publishing a book.

Dave :)
Re: Flash flooding canyons query David Mar 19, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., rcwild@w... wrote:
> Rather than compiling a list of "safe" canyons, it would be better
to
> educate people on the variables that make one canyon more likely to
> flood than another.
>
> The biggest concern should be the size of the catchment. A canyon
> that drains a large area of land might flood with a light rain while
> another that drains a very small area doesn't flood, even in a
> torrential downpour.
>
> Another factor is the surface slope of the catchment area. If it is
> steep, water will drain off of it faster than it can be absorbed
into
> the ground.
>
> Also consider the permeability of the surface material and amount
of
> vegetation. One advantage the Blue Mountains has over the American
> desert southwest. In southern Utah, there is much less vegetation
to
> slow down the runoff and the surface is sun-baked and non-porous.
> Water is not absorbed, it runs directly into the canyons.
>
> While visiting, I did a couple of canyons in the rain. But each time
> I asked about the catchment first. The surface slope, vegetation
and
> surface material were obvious. We arrived at the trailhead to
> Claustral with dark clouds looming overhead. I was told that the
> catchment was quite large. We went to Jenolan Caves instead.
>
> I uploaded a copy of the ACA's Canyons info booklet to your file
> section. The primary focus is Safety and Ethics. The section on
> safety includes more details about flash floods. It is copyrighted,
> but you have our permission to use it in anyway that will help you
> promote safety and ethics in your canyons.
>
> Rich

Thanks Rich.
I've seen this guide before.
It all sounds great learning about the catchments, slopes, and trying
to caluclate the dangers etc, but how does one go about getting this
information?
I would think that the best source would be the experienced canyoners
who have been there, seen it, and done it before? Yet most I've
spoken to aren't willing to part with their knowledge :(
I know that every time I do a new canyon I learn a heck of a lot. I
look at the catchment areas, the terrain, check out how safe it looks
and feels, look for water level marks, check for exit routes etc
Once I have this knowledge it's safer the next time I go back.
Sadly though, at the moment there is basically none of this
information available before I go do a new canyon.

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash-Flood canyons Isaacs Mar 19, 2001
> 1) Stupid people with no common sense. You will always get these
> people it's a fact of life. But my guess is that they don't read
> newsgroups like these. I would like to think that people that go to
> the trouble of reading a newsgroup like this are keen and responsible.
> 2) Not enough information. Eg, Not enough information on which
> canyons are more dangerous to do in bad weather, which ones are
> easier to navigate than others etc. The result is that people get in
> over their heads and need to be rescued or worse. I think the more
> experienced canyoners can help this cause a great deal if they shared
> their knowledge and experiences. There are only 74 people or
> thereabouts on this group, so it's not like publishing a book.
Number 2) can be greatly reduced, if not eliminated, with less of 1).

Something such as flash-flooding is just a common sense thing. If you are
not 100% certain that a canyon won't flash-flood, stay out. If you are not
experienced enough to know which ones will and which won't, then stay out of
them all. Or go with someone who does know (my preferred option). ALL
canyons have an incresed risk when it's been raining - higher water,
slipperier rocks & abseils, murkier water.

Navigation: On Sunday we came across a couple 500m or so from where the HITW
road is closed. They were there looking at their canyonging guide book and a
map, and when we got there they just asked us, "how far is it?". We just
looked at each other & said how far to what?, the reply being "The canyon".
I mean, these people were almost lost after 500m of road walking! (BTW has
anyone heard of a rescue out of Bubble Bath on the weekend?)

Sure, a database like this has its merits, but then so does no database like
this. I'm very much against it.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Cleaning Rope David Mar 19, 2001
Just used my shiney new 40m white (with bi-colour stripe) dry treated
9mm static rope on the weekend and now it looks like it's done a
dozen canyons!
I rinsed it in water but it's still all dirty and yucky looking

Is it worthwhile cleaning a rope? (ie. does it help maintain it
etc?), and if so, what is the best way?

I liked my shiney rope! :(

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyoning training Poco Loco Adventures Mar 19, 2001
Sorry for the bad news but for the record : the CEC title is not officially
recognized in France and Spain, two of the biggest canyoning countries.
Stefan Hoffman of the CEC is doing a great job of accrediting the CEC
courses all over Europe, in some countries succesfully, in others not (yet
?).
I spoke a few months ago about these matters to a functionary of Jeunesse &
Sport (the French government dept. which - among others - regulates and
accredits the official guides) and for them the CEC officially "doesn't
exist".

This said, by European Community law, a title recognized in one of the
member states should allow the bearer to work in other European countries as
well.... it's politics, big business and protectionism all mixed together
and every inch of that ground is fought over bitterly by all parties
concerned.
To give you an idea : in France this involves several federations of
mountaineering, caving, canoo/kayak - and on the sidelines the CEC.
I suspect this battle to go on for at least a couple of years, in fact this
has been going on since the sport became big (money).

Personally and from looking at the course contents of the CEC/ACA, I think
these courses are quite capable of forming good guides (actually, this is
against "my shop" because I got my training from and give training within
different federations).
I don't agree with the statement that local knowledge is paramount to
teaching canyoning skills. Literally thousands of people cooperated during a
long time to make the modern canyoning techniques what they are now and
frankly, it's stupid not to take advantage of this knowledge (or worse, not
accept offers for sharing it) in countries "where the sport is coming out of
the shadows".
Point any good instructor (these guys have a lot of experience !) in the
direction of a handfull of wet canyons and show him some rapids (rafting
quality) and he'll be able to give a very good course.

The whole point of these type of courses is to form guides which are capable
of going down canyons anytime, anywhere, in any conditions, not just the
canyons nextdoor !

Advance warning of any weird things with teeth big enough to puncture a
neoprene suit should be welcome though ....

Koen


----- Original Message -----
From: Isaacs <pisaacsm@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>; <info@...>; Dave Vass
<deepcanyon@...>; <"mailto:c"@...>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2001 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Canyoning training


> > How about organising a course similar to the ACA or CEC one, and asking
> > Rich to be the instructor? The benefits of this would be:
> For something such as canyoning - if there are instructions & courses
being
> given, it is my opinion that the instructor should be someone local, with
> local knowledge, and good knowledge of things that are specific to a
> location.
>
> This doesn't mean that others from afar, such as Rich wouldn't be able to
> give useful input.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: Flash flooding canyons query rcwild@wildernessmail.net Mar 19, 2001
Dave,

I know people here who have done particular canyons many times, but
when asked the size of the catchment, they have no clue. Surface
slope? What do you mean? Being experienced doesn't always mean
competent.

I am suggesting that more people need to learn to read a topographic
map so they can figure these things out on their own if others are
unwilling to share what they know (or think they know).

Rich
RE: [OzCanyons] Cleaning Rope Cathi Humphrey-Hood Mar 19, 2001
Unfortunately, after one canyon, they never look the same again! The
bi-colour 40m rope I used to have wore out much more quickly than my other
ropes, and the white side always looked a bit grey.

My friends chain their rope and drop it in the washing machine on a gentle
cycle with soft soap flakes like lux - I prefer to put mine in the bathtub,
again with lux, and then rinse it really well and lay it out to dry. It does
get a lot of the dirt out and that helps minimise damage to the rope, as the
dirt particles get ground into the rope by descenders and eventually it
wears the strands.

Cheers,
Cathi

-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:tronnort@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 20 March 2001 12:44
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Cleaning Rope


Just used my shiney new 40m white (with bi-colour stripe) dry treated
9mm static rope on the weekend and now it looks like it's done a
dozen canyons!
I rinsed it in water but it's still all dirty and yucky looking

Is it worthwhile cleaning a rope? (ie. does it help maintain it
etc?), and if so, what is the best way?

I liked my shiney rope! :(

Dave :)





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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######################################################################
Re: [OzCanyons] Cleaning Rope James Shadlow Mar 19, 2001

hi peoples

my dad, brother and myself do alot of caving, and the ropes go in looking new and come out usually some sort of brown colour. my dad cleans his white 11m rope by coiling it around the walls of the washing machine and putting it on a cool gentle wash, and then hangs it up on the washing line. this usually gets out all the mud and other cave/canyon rubbish

James Shadlow

  David <tronnort@...> wrote:

Just used my shiney new 40m white (with bi-colour stripe) dry treated
9mm static rope on the weekend and now it looks like it's done a
dozen canyons!
I rinsed it in water but it's still all dirty and yucky looking

Is it worthwhile cleaning a rope? (ie. does it help maintain it
etc?), and if so, what is the best way?

I liked my shiney rope! :(

Dave :)





To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



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Re: Flash flooding canyons query Derek Hazell Mar 19, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., rcwild@w... wrote:
> Rather than compiling a list of "safe" canyons, it would be better
to
> educate people on the variables that make one canyon more likely to
> flood than another.
>
> The biggest concern should be the size of the catchment. A canyon
> that drains a large area of land might flood with a light rain while
> another that drains a very small area doesn't flood, even in a
> torrential downpour.
>
> Another factor is the surface slope of the catchment area. If it is
> steep, water will drain off of it faster than it can be absorbed
into
> the ground.
>
> Also consider the permeability of the surface material and amount
of
> vegetation. One advantage the Blue Mountains has over the American
> desert southwest. In southern Utah, there is much less vegetation
to
> slow down the runoff and the surface is sun-baked and non-porous.
> Water is not absorbed, it runs directly into the canyons.
>
> While visiting, I did a couple of canyons in the rain. But each time
> I asked about the catchment first. The surface slope, vegetation
and
> surface material were obvious. We arrived at the trailhead to
> Claustral with dark clouds looming overhead. I was told that the
> catchment was quite large. We went to Jenolan Caves instead.
>
> I uploaded a copy of the ACA's Canyons info booklet to your file
> section. The primary focus is Safety and Ethics. The section on
> safety includes more details about flash floods. It is copyrighted,
> but you have our permission to use it in anyway that will help you
> promote safety and ethics in your canyons.
>
> Rich


I think though commonsense is really necessary in canyoning, there is
heaps for me and perhaps others to learn about canyoning that is not
exactly "commonsense" - ie re the flash floods issue you need to know
about the surface area of catchment area, slope of catchment area,
how to read a topo map to work this out, the porousness of the
ground, how long the rain has been going for, etc.

Like Rich said, maybe we don't need to share lists of this and that
around, but it is good to educate people to know what to look out for.

Derek
:)
Re: Canyoning training localfocus@zeta.org.au Mar 20, 2001
G'day Julien,
great idea, a few of us have been mulling over a similar idea over
here, good on you for taking the initiative. the bigest problem is of
course the $, canyon guides and enthusiasts are not generally known
for their affluence, (although i have seen the odd porsche at entry
points) following the training some form of australian canyoning
association could be formed to implement similar training programs
over time. our problem here is swift water, there is the white water
stadium that was built for the olympics, but thats it locally, unless
it is flooding. I'll be able to put some time into it during winter
but now i dont have time to scratch myself. great to see your
enthusiasm.
lee

--- In OzCanyons@y..., canyonz <info@c...> wrote:
> "Hi there canyoners from the South Pacific
>
> Julien here, from Canyonz in Auckland. I just spent a week with Rich
> Carlson from the American Canyoneering Association. It was good
showing
> Rich the local canyons and scenery, talking about training and
> techniques and having a bit of a break myself. I've been in touch
with
> Rich for a while now and it was great to meet him face to face at
last.
>
> I thought I would share a few ideas with you, and I would greatly
> appreciate your feedback as well.
>
> * There are now two associations in the world that train
canyoning
> guides to exactly the same standards, the European Commission
of
> Canyoning and the American Association of Canyoneering. They
appear
> to have reached a high level of competency, in that they have
> developed ethics and techniques that are purely adapted to
> canyoning, instead of being solely derived from mountaineering,
> rockclimbing or caving.
> * Both associations offer guide courses in 2 stages, and stages
1 and
> 2 can be done in Europe or the States.
> * A USA guide with an ACA qualification will have his/her
> qualification recognised in Europe, and vice-versa. It means
that a
> safety-conscious canyoning company in the States or in Europe
> wouldn't have a problem employing him/her.
> * Having Rich here was a great eye-opener and a great chance. His
> level of competency and skills, whether in dry or wet canyons,
is
> simply impressive. But even more important, his long-term ideas
> (and dedication!) about canyoning in terms of training and
> qualification are very interesting. Soooo..... here's the idea:
>
> How about organising a course similar to the ACA or CEC one, and
asking
> Rich to be the instructor? The benefits of this would be:
>
> * Training to the best possible international standards
> * Training of instructors to CEC and ACA levels
> * Recognition by the CEC and the ACA
> * An international 'ticket' that would increase employment
chances
> overseas
> * Links between NZ, Oz and the rest of the world canyoning
community
> * More business from Europe and the States as your qualification
is
> recognised
>
> The great thing is this: for the first stage 1 and 2 courses, Rich
is
> happy for us to cover his travelling expenses and won't charge us
for
> instruction (as long as we provide coffee!). After some discussion,
we
> agreed that it would be easier to reach a critical mass of people by
> trying to get together NZ and Oz canyoners and would-be guides, and
do
> stage 1 in Oz and stage 2 in NZ, or maybe both stages in Oz, as
there
> are more canyoners and canyoning companies out there. If each
> participant pays a share of of Rich's costs (mainly airfare and
> coffee), it should be reasonable. Us Kiwis would have to fly over
there,
> but what the heck, I've got a thick wetsuit, I'll swim! I really
want to
> stress that this is a unique opportunity: The CEC and ACA together
have
> trained hundreds of guides to the best professional level, they
have the
> technical manuals and expertise, and maybe we'll get a discount on
> Rich's soon-to-be published technical canyoning book (har har!)
>
> The aim of the courses would not to find out who is a good guide
and who
> is a bad guide. So let's put our enormous egos aside (I'm French so
I
> know about arrogance) and try to be the best guides! I believe that
such
> a course does not necessarily compete with your existing training
> courses, but rather complement them. Rich could possibly do stage 1
and
> 2 as early as this Southern Hemisphere spring. We would need at
least 10
> participants to make this affordable for each person.
>
> So what d'ya all think of that?
>
>
> Julien Senamaud - CANYONZ
Re: Flash flooding canyons query David Mar 20, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., rcwild@w... wrote:
> Dave,
>
> I know people here who have done particular canyons many times, but
> when asked the size of the catchment, they have no clue. Surface
> slope? What do you mean? Being experienced doesn't always mean
> competent.
>
> I am suggesting that more people need to learn to read a
topographic
> map so they can figure these things out on their own if others are
> unwilling to share what they know (or think they know).
>
> Rich

Very true Rich. I've found that a lot of people don't know nor care,
even guys that have been doing it for 20 years. On the other hand I
know others that know a lot about such things. It's a grab bag!

Matters to me though, I like to analyse every canyon I go to, and do
as much research beforehand as possible. Just frustrates me sometimes
that there is very little information available.

Dave :)
Re: Cleaning Rope David Mar 20, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Cathi Humphrey-Hood <cathi.humphrey-hood@j...>
wrote:
> Unfortunately, after one canyon, they never look the same again! The
> bi-colour 40m rope I used to have wore out much more quickly than
my other
> ropes, and the white side always looked a bit grey.
>
> My friends chain their rope and drop it in the washing machine on a
gentle
> cycle with soft soap flakes like lux - I prefer to put mine in the
bathtub,
> again with lux, and then rinse it really well and lay it out to
dry. It does
> get a lot of the dirt out and that helps minimise damage to the
rope, as the
> dirt particles get ground into the rope by descenders and
eventually it
> wears the strands.
>
> Cheers,
> Cathi

Thanks Cathi
That's kind of what I was thinking if you left the dirt on there.
Does Lux do anything to the "dry" treatment?, I've heard it lasts for
about a year under normal use. Is Lux a Ph-neutral thing or something
like that?

Dave :)
Canyoning training canyonz Mar 20, 2001
I had a few more thoughts about your comments, Mitchell. You're right, it is
necessary to have local knowledge regarding aspects like environment,
legislation, weather and floods, and cultural and social factors. But this is
only one side of the training of a guide. I also believe it is good to see what
other people are doing and how they do it. The benefits of doing an ACA - CEC
course would be to use the best guiding techniques possible and to have the
qualification recognised overseas, but mostly to set up a course where the
guides/trainees would become instructors for the next set of courses. There's
some great stuff happening in the canyoning world, let's be part of it!

Julien
Re: Flash flooding canyons query localfocus@zeta.org.au Mar 20, 2001
I feel that a list of contributing factors would be best, having any
sort of database on individual canyons would offend some people,
another contributing factor is the soil and parent rock type. eg
basalt capped mountains (tomah, wilson, banks, corricudgie, irvine,
tootie) withold a lot of water and release it slowly over a week or
two. This means that in a canyon like nth bowens creek where a lot of
the catchment is on basalt soils the water level will stay up a lot
longer than a purely sandstone canyon with a similar catchment, eg
Yileen. So... a day after heavy rain Yileen will be fine, three or so
after the same rain Nth Bowens will be fine.
lee
Re: Cleaning Rope localfocus@zeta.org.au Mar 20, 2001
There sure are some lucky ropes out there... ours get washed in the
canyon they were last in. THey are rarely dry before they are out
again.
Lee
Re: [OzCanyons] Flash-Flood canyons Flynn Mar 20, 2001
At 09:48 AM 3/19/01 -0000, you wrote:

> How many of us actually do go out in supposed bad weather?.
> If we didn't I dont think anyone would have gone out this year!


This might explain why there seemed to be a lot more reported rescues this
year then in years past (that and a lot more poeple canyoning)

I've been caught out by the weather a couple of times where I've needed to
make a quick exit.

As well as all the things that have been said about reading tropos and
working out catchments there are a few things you should ask yourself
before leading a canyon in any weather.

1. Do you have the skills and equipment (including a basic climbing rack)
to get yourself and your party members out if things do turn bad?

2. Do you have a second member with those skills in case you get hurt?

3. Are you perpared to spend a miserable night out in the scrub if things
don't go as planned and you get benighted?

4. Does someone at home know where you are going? It's not enough just to
leave the name of your intended canyon as many canyons have
mulitple names. The classic example of this would be the
Twister/ Sheepdip mix up. If you stated that there was an
injured canyoner in Sheepdip the rescue squad would more
then likely be directed to Twister. Therefore leave a basic trip plan
including the Grid references of the planned entry and exits
points.


Canyoning is a dangerous activity the idea is to minimise the risk that you
or a member of your party requires rescuing or worse. Why not get your
canyoning group together and do an Improvised Rope Rescue or even a Canyon
Water Rescue course and then keep your skill updated. There are some
compainies who run these courses and once you've paid to do them once don't
mind you coming back and tagging along for free next year.


Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyoning training Roberto.Schenone@lia.it Mar 20, 2001
>

Sorry for the bad news but for the record : the CEC title is not officially
>recognized in France and Spain, two of the biggest canyoning countries.
>Stefan Hoffman of the CEC is doing a great job of accrediting the CEC
>courses all over Europe, in some countries succesfully, in others not (yet
>?).



I saw the plans of CEC courses and they look quite good, but I think that an
"European Commission" (remember that the fact they called themselves European
Commission doesn't mean they are recognized by EEUU, I could name my group World
Canyoning Organization...) should have an internet site written also in English
(at least). At the moment the site is in German.
Also in Italy CEC is not recognized, nor it is the canyoning school created by
AIC (Associazione Italiana Canyoning).

Ciao

Roberto
Re: Canyoning Training rcwild@wildernessmail.net Mar 20, 2001
I don't envy Stefan Hofmann's job in Europe. So many different
jurisdictions with different rules and so many groups wanting a piece
of the pie. Nonetheless, the CEC is making a lot of progress. The
English version of their web site is in the works.

Our situation in the states is quite different. There are not as many
guides here and certification is not required. In organizing the ACA
we decided not to limit the association to guides. The majority of
our students and members are recreational canyoneers.

The situation in Australia is much more similar to the U.S. than it
is to Europe. I would welcome the opportunity to conduct a course or
two in Australia, but encourage you to keep it open to anyone, not
just guides. I told Julien that I would not attempt to make a profit
on a course, just cover my expenses (basically airfare since so many
people invited me into their homes). So the more people interested,
the lower the cost per person. Ideally, some of the participants will
have the desire and the aptitude to teach the courses themselves.

While enjoying your canyons, I observed techniques employed by both
guides and private canyoners. It was obvious that a lot of thought
went into some and not too much in others. I plan to include the good
ones in my book. One of the biggest advantages to tapping into the
international canyoning community is the sharing of techniques. When
I took the CEC courses I discovered that people had come up with
other solutions to the same problems I encountered. In many cases,
their solutions were more efficient than mine.

I'm still not finished learning. In May I will be observing an EFC
guide exam in Corsica. Might even be able to learn something from the
French techniques. ;-)

Rich
[OzCanyons] Re: Cleaning Rope Warren Keen Mar 20, 2001
Back to Spelean Home Page
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Re: Cleaning Rope David Mar 20, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Warren Keen <waz@e...> wrote:
> A friend of mine who works for some police special response thingy
says
> that he puts his rope in the washing machine with some Softly fabric
> softener, but this is probably 'cause they abseil really fast on
twisted
> Figure 8's and burn the crap out of the rope.
>
> Haven't tried this but it looks pretty fancy......

I've gotta get one!!!

Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Cleaning Rope Cathi Humphrey-Hood Mar 20, 2001
I don't know that much about Lux other than it is regarded as "pure soap"
without detergents in it, I'm pretty sure it is pH neutral. We would
probably have to ask a manufacturer if it affected the dry treatment at all,
my impression is that it wouldn't in the short term. It is a pity that very
few ropes come with "caring for your new rope" instructions...

Cheers,
Cathi

-----Original Message-----
From: David [mailto:tronnort@...]
Sent: Tuesday, 20 March 2001 20:37
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Cleaning Rope

Thanks Cathi
That's kind of what I was thinking if you left the dirt on there.
Does Lux do anything to the "dry" treatment?, I've heard it lasts for
about a year under normal use. Is Lux a Ph-neutral thing or something
like that?

Dave :)





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This message is intended for the use of the party to whom it is addressed and may contain information which is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this communication in error, please notify us by telephone and either return the original message or ensure its destruction. Any dissemination or copying of this communication and its attachments by anyone other than the party to whom it is addressed is strictly prohibited.
######################################################################
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Cleaning Rope Isaacs Mar 20, 2001
> That's kind of what I was thinking if you left the dirt on there.
> Does Lux do anything to the "dry" treatment?, I've heard it lasts for
> about a year under normal use. Is Lux a Ph-neutral thing or something
> like that?
Soaps are usually alkaline, ie have a pH above 7 (7 is neutral).

This is because the soap itself is alkaline, and they probably also have
some residual alkali left over from manufacture.

Soap is made by boiling up fats &/or oils with an alkali (often sodium
hydroxide - caustic soda). In fact, palmolive soap is so called because it
is made from palm & olive oils (at least, that's how it got its name - don't
know if it still uses these).

Cheers,
Mitchell
Claustral Closure localfocus@zeta.org.au Mar 21, 2001
Yes, its true! The keyhole is blocked in claustral caused by a land
slip above the abseils. NPWS have closed the canyon (at least to
commercial parties) until further notice. Aparently there is a
reasonable sized land slip just above the abseils which has made
passing difficult and debris from the slip has blocked the keyhole
and made the water very murky. Haven't seen for myself, will try to
talk with NPWS today and update the list. Aparently commercial guides
had to rescue several recreational parties who were strandard at and
between the abseils. Sounds like an interesting excercise!
lee
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Cleaning Rope Cathi Humphrey-Hood Mar 21, 2001
You're right, and usually the process has extra alkali left over because
there is more of one component added than the other, just to make sure the
reaction goes to completion. But I think they have a washing process of
dissolving the soap and drying it, during which time the pH drops. The more
washing and drying cycles the soap goes through, the closer to pH neutral
the soap, which is apparently why these soaps are more expensive.

This is important, as alkaline substances can be harmful to synthetic ropes.
So not any old soap will do!

Cheers,
Cathi

-----Original Message-----
From: Isaacs [mailto:pisaacsm@...]
Sent: Wednesday, 21 March 2001 18:22
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Cleaning Rope


> That's kind of what I was thinking if you left the dirt on there.
> Does Lux do anything to the "dry" treatment?, I've heard it lasts for
> about a year under normal use. Is Lux a Ph-neutral thing or something
> like that?
Soaps are usually alkaline, ie have a pH above 7 (7 is neutral).

This is because the soap itself is alkaline, and they probably also have
some residual alkali left over from manufacture.

Soap is made by boiling up fats &/or oils with an alkali (often sodium
hydroxide - caustic soda). In fact, palmolive soap is so called because it
is made from palm & olive oils (at least, that's how it got its name - don't
know if it still uses these).

Cheers,
Mitchell



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OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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Places for abseil training David L. Jones Mar 21, 2001
Does anyone know of any good spots to go abseil training?
I.E, some place scenic, easy and quick to get to, suitable for canyon
type training (eg, tree belays, double rope pulldown, pool at the
bottom would be nice :) etc), without actually having to go to a
canyon.
I'm thinking the beaches or something like that, but I dont want to
have to spend weekends searching for decent spots. I've heard of a
few spots but only have vauge references.

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Places for abseil training Neil Miller Mar 22, 2001
At 03:08 AM 22/03/2001 +0000, you wrote:
Does anyone know of any good spots to go abseil training?
I.E, some place scenic, easy and quick to get to, suitable for canyon
type training (eg, tree belays, double rope pulldown, pool at the
bottom would be nice :) etc), without actually having to go to a
canyon.
I'm thinking the beaches or something like that, but I dont want to
have to spend weekends searching for decent spots. I've heard of a
few spots but only have vauge references.

Yellow Rock lookout in the lower Blue Mtns is a popular place for abseiling, they have bolts, plus trees, overhangs (Damn nice overhang!), but no pools at the bottom. A number of spots to try, most nicely vertical, some slightly sloped, did I mention the nice overhang? ;-)

Cheers

Neil


Thanks
Dave :)


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Re: Places for abseil training David L. Jones Mar 21, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
> Yellow Rock lookout in the lower Blue Mtns is a popular place for
> abseiling, they have bolts, plus trees, overhangs (Damn nice
overhang!),
> but no pools at the bottom. A number of spots to try, most nicely
vertical,
> some slightly sloped, did I mention the nice overhang? ;-)
>
> Cheers
>
> Neil

Thanks Neil
I like overhangs :)
How big are the drops?, I'm after <20m drops (only have a 40m rope)
What suburb is that in?/near? (lower blue mountains is a big area!)
Actually I was hoping for something away from the blue mountains,
easier drive for everyone.

Dave :)
Re: Places for abseil training Derek Hazell Mar 21, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "David L. Jones" <tronnort@y...> wrote:
> --- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
> > Yellow Rock lookout in the lower Blue Mtns is a popular place for
> > abseiling, they have bolts, plus trees, overhangs (Damn nice
> overhang!),
> > but no pools at the bottom. A number of spots to try, most nicely
> vertical,
> > some slightly sloped, did I mention the nice overhang? ;-)
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Neil
>
> Thanks Neil
> I like overhangs :)
> How big are the drops?, I'm after <20m drops (only have a 40m rope)
> What suburb is that in?/near? (lower blue mountains is a big area!)
> Actually I was hoping for something away from the blue mountains,
> easier drive for everyone.
>


> Dave :)

Dave
I plugged "yellow rock lookout" into the google search engine and I
found out a good url with info about the lookout:

http://www.bluemts.com.au/tourist/YellowRock/default.htm

It says "To get to Yellow Rock, drive along Hawkesbury Road from
Springwood and turn right into Singles Ridge Road." Haven't been
there myself yet - will have to check it out

rgds
Derek
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Places for abseil training Neil Miller Mar 22, 2001
At 05:11 AM 22/03/2001 +0000, you wrote:
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
> Yellow Rock lookout in the lower Blue Mtns is a popular place for
> abseiling, they have bolts, plus trees, overhangs (Damn nice
overhang!),
> but no pools at the bottom. A number of spots to try, most nicely
vertical,
> some slightly sloped, did I mention the nice overhang? ;-)
>
> Cheers
>
> Neil

Thanks Neil
I like overhangs :)

Who doesn't ;-)

How big are the drops?, I'm after <20m drops (only have a 40m rope)

A 40 would be close on double rope, but as a single, no worries. The 40 will no way reach on double, even on the bolts set near the edge of the overhang, as a single, no problems. The good anchor trees are quite a ways back from the edge, maybe 10 metres or so. make sure u use tape for the trees, or better still, save the trees, use the bolts and get some bolt anchors.

Just make sure if you are going to do it on a single, you use plenty of friction so you can slow down, been there done that, made the mistake, bounced off the rocks at the bottom, extreme blisters on both hands within a few minutes, even through the good thick leather welding gloves. Melted shirt ;-) OUCH! Amazing the difference one extra bar of friction would have made.

This is a superb overhang (IMHO) as you only have around 2-3 feet of cliff before the overhang starts and then it's free fall to the bottom.

Further along nearest the car park, there is an all cliff face drop, very popular with training schools. There are some smaller and other varied drops between these 2 main drops as well.

What suburb is that in?/near? (lower blue mountains is a big area!)

Yeah, I've noticed that it's pretty big. ;-)

To find Yellow Rock Lookout, go to Springwood, turn onto Hawksbury road and head towards Winmalee, turn RIGHT into Singles Ridge Rd, follow that for quite a few KM's, then look for a LEFT turn into Yellow Rock Road, follow that to the end, it turns into dirt where you leave the housing. You will come to a turn-around and car parking area, there is bbq areas etc. The overhang is on the path that goes left past the bbq shelter, well, actually, all of the abseils are on this path, the main drop is just a short distance, and the main overhang is like 200mtrs further along. There are a few places where you can get back up. Best one, is to scramble up a dirt slope between the main abseil (On your right now) and another cliff on your left, slippery, but not as hard as climbing out.

Actually I was hoping for something away from the blue mountains,
easier drive for everyone.

Worth the drive.

Another site I have had my eye on, but not tried, is one of the waterfalls near Lawson, shallow pool at the bottom, 15-20 mtr drop, usually flowing quite well, walking track to the base of the falls, reasonably easy access to the top of the falls, just have not had a look at the top to see if there is a good anchor point yet. I think it was Cataract falls, or maybe Adelina falls, don't remember, would have to look at the map. But basically, just go to Lawson, Turn left onto Honour Ave, which is where the war memorial and shops are, opposite the railway station, follow that road down till you see a car park on the right with the head of a walking track. Follow this track to the bottom to the creek, you can turn RIGHT up to the bottom of the falls in question. About half way down the track, there is a track off to the RIGHT that looks like it follow the upper part of the creek, so it would be a pretty easy scrub bash off the track in a suitable place to the top of those falls.

Let me know if you try either of these.

Love to know of any other places around. Abseiling at Glenbrook is getting crowded.

Oh yeah, if you want a real HEART STARTER of an abseil 90-95 mtrs of pure vertical, then you can't beat the drop at the head of the HORSE TRAIL that goes down and meets up with the track from Junction rock and Grand Canyon. Go to Evans lookout, follow the trail down into the grand canyon, part way down, a track branches off to the LEFT, this takes you to the head of the Horse track. Where the track takes a sharp left and heads down between 2 cliff lines, you will see you can go straight ahead and climb up onto a large rock ridge, you have arrived! Anchor point is a HUGE tree back before this ridge. Place something on the edge to protect the rope as you go over, because it's a pretty sharp 45 degree edge.

Once you get to the bottom, you have a very scrubby bash back to meet up with the horse trail. Looking directly away from the cliff face, take a bearing of approx 45 degrees left and head in that general direction and sort of also heading up towards the cliff line further around, you will eventually meet up with the track which brings you back to exactly where you started.

On a sphincter tightening level, I'd give that drop a 9.9!

I've rambled enough, back to your normal viewing.

Cheers

Neil


Dave :)


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Re: Places for abseil training David L. Jones Mar 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
> At 05:11 AM 22/03/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >--- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
> > > Yellow Rock lookout in the lower Blue Mtns is a popular place
for
> > > abseiling, they have bolts, plus trees, overhangs (Damn nice
> >overhang!),
> > > but no pools at the bottom. A number of spots to try, most
nicely
> >vertical,
> > > some slightly sloped, did I mention the nice overhang? ;-)
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Neil
> >
> >Thanks Neil
> >I like overhangs :)
>
> Who doesn't ;-)
>
> >How big are the drops?, I'm after <20m drops (only have a 40m rope)
>
> A 40 would be close on double rope, but as a single, no worries.
The 40
> will no way reach on double, even on the bolts set near the edge of
the
> overhang, as a single, no problems. The good anchor trees are quite
a ways
> back from the edge, maybe 10 metres or so. make sure u use tape for
the
> trees, or better still, save the trees, use the bolts and get some
bolt
> anchors.
>
> Just make sure if you are going to do it on a single, you use
plenty of
> friction so you can slow down, been there done that, made the
mistake,
> bounced off the rocks at the bottom, extreme blisters on both hands
within
> a few minutes, even through the good thick leather welding gloves.
Melted
> shirt ;-) OUCH! Amazing the difference one extra bar of friction
would have
> made.
>
> This is a superb overhang (IMHO) as you only have around 2-3 feet
of cliff
> before the overhang starts and then it's free fall to the bottom.
>
> Further along nearest the car park, there is an all cliff face
drop, very
> popular with training schools. There are some smaller and other
varied
> drops between these 2 main drops as well.
>
> >What suburb is that in?/near? (lower blue mountains is a big area!)
>
> Yeah, I've noticed that it's pretty big. ;-)
>
> To find Yellow Rock Lookout, go to Springwood, turn onto Hawksbury
road and
> head towards Winmalee, turn RIGHT into Singles Ridge Rd, follow
that for
> quite a few KM's, then look for a LEFT turn into Yellow Rock Road,
follow
> that to the end, it turns into dirt where you leave the housing.
You will
> come to a turn-around and car parking area, there is bbq areas etc.
The
> overhang is on the path that goes left past the bbq shelter, well,
> actually, all of the abseils are on this path, the main drop is
just a
> short distance, and the main overhang is like 200mtrs further
along. There
> are a few places where you can get back up. Best one, is to
scramble up a
> dirt slope between the main abseil (On your right now) and another
cliff on
> your left, slippery, but not as hard as climbing out.
>
> >Actually I was hoping for something away from the blue mountains,
> >easier drive for everyone.
>
> Worth the drive.
>
> Another site I have had my eye on, but not tried, is one of the
waterfalls
> near Lawson, shallow pool at the bottom, 15-20 mtr drop, usually
flowing
> quite well, walking track to the base of the falls, reasonably easy
access
> to the top of the falls, just have not had a look at the top to see
if
> there is a good anchor point yet. I think it was Cataract falls, or
maybe
> Adelina falls, don't remember, would have to look at the map. But
> basically, just go to Lawson, Turn left onto Honour Ave, which is
where the
> war memorial and shops are, opposite the railway station, follow
that road
> down till you see a car park on the right with the head of a
walking track.
> Follow this track to the bottom to the creek, you can turn RIGHT up
to the
> bottom of the falls in question. About half way down the track,
there is a
> track off to the RIGHT that looks like it follow the upper part of
the
> creek, so it would be a pretty easy scrub bash off the track in a
suitable
> place to the top of those falls.
>
> Let me know if you try either of these.
>
> Love to know of any other places around. Abseiling at Glenbrook is
getting
> crowded.
>
> Oh yeah, if you want a real HEART STARTER of an abseil 90-95 mtrs
of pure
> vertical, then you can't beat the drop at the head of the HORSE
TRAIL that
> goes down and meets up with the track from Junction rock and Grand
Canyon.
> Go to Evans lookout, follow the trail down into the grand canyon,
part way
> down, a track branches off to the LEFT, this takes you to the head
of the
> Horse track. Where the track takes a sharp left and heads down
between 2
> cliff lines, you will see you can go straight ahead and climb up
onto a
> large rock ridge, you have arrived! Anchor point is a HUGE tree
back before
> this ridge. Place something on the edge to protect the rope as you
go over,
> because it's a pretty sharp 45 degree edge.
>
> Once you get to the bottom, you have a very scrubby bash back to
meet up
> with the horse trail. Looking directly away from the cliff face,
take a
> bearing of approx 45 degrees left and head in that general
direction and
> sort of also heading up towards the cliff line further around, you
will
> eventually meet up with the track which brings you back to exactly
where
> you started.
>
> On a sphincter tightening level, I'd give that drop a 9.9!
>
> I've rambled enough, back to your normal viewing.
>
> Cheers
>
> Neil

Thanks Neil, will give them a go!

Dave :)
Bolt belays David L. Jones Mar 22, 2001
2 Q's

1)What is the best (read-safest) way to abseil from a bolt belay?

2)What does one need to take into a canyon to ensure you can abseil
from any type of bolt?

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: Places for abseil training - Glenbrook David L. Jones Mar 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
> Another site I have had my eye on, but not tried, is one of the
waterfalls
> near Lawson, shallow pool at the bottom, 15-20 mtr drop, usually
flowing
> quite well, walking track to the base of the falls, reasonably easy
access
> to the top of the falls, just have not had a look at the top to see
if
> there is a good anchor point yet. I think it was Cataract falls, or
maybe
> Adelina falls, don't remember, would have to look at the map. But
> basically, just go to Lawson, Turn left onto Honour Ave, which is
where the
> war memorial and shops are, opposite the railway station, follow
that road
> down till you see a car park on the right with the head of a
walking track.
> Follow this track to the bottom to the creek, you can turn RIGHT up
to the
> bottom of the falls in question. About half way down the track,
there is a
> track off to the RIGHT that looks like it follow the upper part of
the
> creek, so it would be a pretty easy scrub bash off the track in a
suitable
> place to the top of those falls.
>
> Let me know if you try either of these.

They sound pretty good, will try and give them a go.

> Love to know of any other places around. Abseiling at Glenbrook is
getting
> crowded.

Where abouts is the abseiling at Glenbrook?, that's much closer.

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Places for abseil training - Glenbrook Neil Miller Mar 22, 2001
At 12:00 PM 22/03/2001 +0000, you wrote:
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
> Another site I have had my eye on, but not tried, is one of the
waterfalls
> near Lawson, shallow pool at the bottom, 15-20 mtr drop, usually
flowing
> quite well, walking track to the base of the falls, reasonably easy
access
> to the top of the falls, just have not had a look at the top to see
if
> there is a good anchor point yet. I think it was Cataract falls, or
maybe
> Adelina falls, don't remember, would have to look at the map. But
> basically, just go to Lawson, Turn left onto Honour Ave, which is
where the
> war memorial and shops are, opposite the railway station, follow
that road
> down till you see a car park on the right with the head of a
walking track.
> Follow this track to the bottom to the creek, you can turn RIGHT up
to the
> bottom of the falls in question. About half way down the track,
there is a
> track off to the RIGHT that looks like it follow the upper part of
the
> creek, so it would be a pretty easy scrub bash off the track in a
suitable
> place to the top of those falls.
>
> Let me know if you try either of these.

They sound pretty good, will try and give them a go.
 
> Love to know of any other places around. Abseiling at Glenbrook is
getting
> crowded.
 
Where abouts is the abseiling at Glenbrook?, that's much closer.

In the national park, at Mt something er rather, sorry, can't remember the name of it.

There are drops there ranging from small 5mtr ones to a good 40-45mtr one from memory.

cheers

Neil


Thanks
Dave :)


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MOBILE: 0414 604 853
FAX: (02) 9834 6120

Re: [OzCanyons] Bolt belays Poco Loco Adventures Mar 22, 2001
2 A's

1) always 2 bolts, never + 90°, better - 60° if triangulated, no slop in
connection between the 2 if no triangle, no fall factor (see slop) when
first 1 fails, always load the bottom 1, never rope on rope, never rope on
plaque, webbing is OK, quality chain is better, quality rap links are a
must, never trust webbing that isn't yours, 1 new pce of webbing is better
then 10 old 1's, no flashy colours, cut & pack old 1's out, never rap-link
flat against rock, trust in its maker, if limited trust no
shocks -smooooth...

2) rope and some of the above.

Koen

----- Original Message -----
From: David L. Jones <tronnort@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 12:47 PM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Bolt belays


> 2 Q's
>
> 1)What is the best (read-safest) way to abseil from a bolt belay?
>
> 2)What does one need to take into a canyon to ensure you can abseil
> from any type of bolt?
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Places for abseil training - Glenbrook Flynn Mar 22, 2001
Glenbrook sites thate are set up for absieling include Mt Portal and Nepean
Lookout.



Abseiling at Glenbrook is
> getting
>> crowded.
>
> Where abouts is the abseiling at Glenbrook?, that's much closer.
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
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>
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Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Bolt belays Flynn Mar 22, 2001
At 01:33 AM 3/23/01 +0100, you wrote:
>> 2 Q's
>>
>> 1)What is the best (read-safest) way to abseil from a bolt belay?
>>
>> 2)What does one need to take into a canyon to ensure you can abseil
>> from any type of bolt?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Dave :)


In most Canyons in the Blue Mt the bolts are not needed and often disappear
as fast as they are placed (removing them is actually promoted by a lot of
canyoners). I'm not keen on using those bolts that are there anyway, a mate
of mine had a couple of bolts pull on him while climbing at Marangaroo Ck
and almost took a grounder. After checking the bolts he found that the guy
putting them in had cut the wrong tapper so how much can you trust a bolt
that's been put in by someone you've never met in a harsh canyon environment.

You should get into the habit of looking for alternate natural anchors in
case you ever come across a boltless canyon. That said some sling or chord,
steel binners and some bolt plates should cover what you need for all the
bolt anchors you come across.

Good luck

Craig




Flynn

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Re: Bolt belays David L. Jones Mar 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
> In most Canyons in the Blue Mt the bolts are not needed and often
disappear
> as fast as they are placed (removing them is actually promoted by a
lot of

So I've noticed! ;)

> canyoners). I'm not keen on using those bolts that are there
anyway, a mate
> of mine had a couple of bolts pull on him while climbing at
Marangaroo Ck
> and almost took a grounder. After checking the bolts he found that
the guy
> putting them in had cut the wrong tapper so how much can you trust
a bolt
> that's been put in by someone you've never met in a harsh canyon
environment.
>
> You should get into the habit of looking for alternate natural
anchors in
> case you ever come across a boltless canyon. That said some sling
or chord,
> steel binners and some bolt plates should cover what you need for
all the
> bolt anchors you come across.
>
> Good luck
>
> Craig

I would only use a bolt anchor as a last resort I think, or maybe as
an additional anchor point.
So how do you actually attach to the bolt?. I'm assuming you use the
anchor plate (never seen one), attach a bit of sling to that, and
then feed your rope through the sling?
I've heard of people tying sling directly onto the bolt, I'm assuming
this is for ring bolts?

Also, what type of sling is best?, I've got some 25mm webbing tape
which looks pretty strong to me, would that be sufficient?

Thanks
Dave :)
moRe: Bolt belays John Chisholm Mar 22, 2001
OK,
I love this group, in the time it has taken me to type up a reply two
other replies have come in. but then I am at work, so there are other
distractions.
My question is.......
Why is it that when I canyon I see people abseiling of saplings I
could snap over my knee, but everyone is always worried about using
only one bolt?
Not that I'd like abseiling off only one (I have but I don't like it)
but one bolt is much stronger than a lot of the old chock stones or
wedged logs I've seen used.
I also notice people like an abseil chain between the two anchors,
which means that if one anchor or one link fails so does the whole
system.

Just my thoughts.

My list for going in 'bolt ready' is
1/ a bolt plate (there are a lot of old carrots out there and it is
best not to assume that bolt and fixed hanger mean the same thing.

2/ I also carry my nut tool as it has a spanner on the end to test
old carrots.

If you are happy with the bolt attach your bolt plate then use a
loop of tape so that your rope isn't through the bolt plate.
Oh and the bolt plate stays behind (sorry). Also be careful
because a bolt plate is designed to be used with a biner and it
can come off without one, try placing the tape knot so that it
prevents this happening (or use a wedge).
If you don't want to lose a bolt plate tie a tape loop onto the
bolt with a larksfoot knot (but you said safest way).

3/ Sufficient tape to use a distant natural anchor if the bolt has
been chopped. small dia. Tubular climbing tape is best for bolts, but
for natural anchors I recommend 2 inch, it better protects trees.

4/ Some climbing protection. This has the added advantage of
providing an escape route if the waters rise (and recent events have
shown that this is a real threat - but make sure you know how to place
the pro.)

5/ A (locking) biner. - like I said a bolt plate is designed to be
used with a biner, so for best degree of safety use a biner. (If the
bolt is close enough to the edge you may not need the tape.)

like Koen said, when linking two bolts with tape the angle between
them should be an acute angle. You can't always manage this if they
aren't your bolts. But the best way to do it is use longer tape.
If you are connecting two bolts with tape use two separate tapes
rather than one big loop of tape. This give added safety in as one
failure doesn't kill the system.

A complex issue as more safety = more gear which can in turn cause
problems. The question is how much 'weight' can you trim from your
system without making the risks too great.
I tend to err on the side of carrying more than I'll ever need, but I
often take out other peoples kids so I am aware that is a big
responsibility.

John
RE: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays John Shadlow Mar 22, 2001
Hi Again

Just one small additional note to John's. Beware bolts are not bolts, they
come in different sizes (metric 7 imperial?) so different size bolt plates
may be needed.

John

-----Original Message-----
From: John Chisholm [mailto:jchish03@...]
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 4:58 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays

OK,
I love this group, in the time it has taken me to type up a reply two
other replies have come in. but then I am at work, so there are other
distractions.
My question is.......
Why is it that when I canyon I see people abseiling of saplings I
could snap over my knee, but everyone is always worried about using
only one bolt?
Not that I'd like abseiling off only one (I have but I don't like it)
but one bolt is much stronger than a lot of the old chock stones or
wedged logs I've seen used.
I also notice people like an abseil chain between the two anchors,
which means that if one anchor or one link fails so does the whole
system.

Just my thoughts.

My list for going in 'bolt ready' is
1/ a bolt plate (there are a lot of old carrots out there and it is
best not to assume that bolt and fixed hanger mean the same thing.

2/ I also carry my nut tool as it has a spanner on the end to test
old carrots.

If you are happy with the bolt attach your bolt plate then use a
loop of tape so that your rope isn't through the bolt plate.
Oh and the bolt plate stays behind (sorry). Also be careful
because a bolt plate is designed to be used with a biner and it
can come off without one, try placing the tape knot so that it
prevents this happening (or use a wedge).
If you don't want to lose a bolt plate tie a tape loop onto the
bolt with a larksfoot knot (but you said safest way).

3/ Sufficient tape to use a distant natural anchor if the bolt has
been chopped. small dia. Tubular climbing tape is best for bolts, but
for natural anchors I recommend 2 inch, it better protects trees.

4/ Some climbing protection. This has the added advantage of
providing an escape route if the waters rise (and recent events have
shown that this is a real threat - but make sure you know how to place
the pro.)

5/ A (locking) biner. - like I said a bolt plate is designed to be
used with a biner, so for best degree of safety use a biner. (If the
bolt is close enough to the edge you may not need the tape.)

like Koen said, when linking two bolts with tape the angle between
them should be an acute angle. You can't always manage this if they
aren't your bolts. But the best way to do it is use longer tape.
If you are connecting two bolts with tape use two separate tapes
rather than one big loop of tape. This give added safety in as one
failure doesn't kill the system.

A complex issue as more safety = more gear which can in turn cause
problems. The question is how much 'weight' can you trim from your
system without making the risks too great.
I tend to err on the side of carrying more than I'll ever need, but I
often take out other peoples kids so I am aware that is a big
responsibility.

John



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash flooding canyons query John R. Shadlow Mar 22, 2001
Just curious,

If people can't read a topo map, what are they doing canyoning by
themselves?

John R. Shadlow

----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Hazell <derek_hazell@...>
Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:16 pm
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash flooding canyons query

> --- In OzCanyons@y..., rcwild@w... wrote:
> > Rather than compiling a list of "safe" canyons, it would be
> better
> to
> > educate people on the variables that make one canyon more likely
> to
> > flood than another.
> >
> > The biggest concern should be the size of the catchment. A canyon
> > that drains a large area of land might flood with a light rain while
> > another that drains a very small area doesn't flood, even in a
> > torrential downpour.
> >
> > Another factor is the surface slope of the catchment area. If it
> is
> > steep, water will drain off of it faster than it can be absorbed
> into
> > the ground.
> >
> > Also consider the permeability of the surface material and
> amount
> of
> > vegetation. One advantage the Blue Mountains has over the
> American
> > desert southwest. In southern Utah, there is much less
> vegetation
> to
> > slow down the runoff and the surface is sun-baked and non-porous.
> > Water is not absorbed, it runs directly into the canyons.
> >
> > While visiting, I did a couple of canyons in the rain. But each time
> > I asked about the catchment first. The surface slope, vegetation
> and
> > surface material were obvious. We arrived at the trailhead to
> > Claustral with dark clouds looming overhead. I was told that the
> > catchment was quite large. We went to Jenolan Caves instead.
> >
> > I uploaded a copy of the ACA's Canyons info booklet to your file
> > section. The primary focus is Safety and Ethics. The section on
> > safety includes more details about flash floods. It is copyrighted,
> > but you have our permission to use it in anyway that will help you
> > promote safety and ethics in your canyons.
> >
> > Rich
>
>
> I think though commonsense is really necessary in canyoning, there
> is
> heaps for me and perhaps others to learn about canyoning that is
> not
> exactly "commonsense" - ie re the flash floods issue you need to
> know
> about the surface area of catchment area, slope of catchment area,
> how to read a topo map to work this out, the porousness of the
> ground, how long the rain has been going for, etc.
>
> Like Rich said, maybe we don't need to share lists of this and
> that
> around, but it is good to educate people to know what to look out for.
>
> Derek
> :)
>
>
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>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays James Shadlow Mar 22, 2001

hi

im fully with john on wat he said. some people out there really do some stupid things when it comes to anchors, like the sapling anchor. u dont often tend to find bolts down in canyons unless there is really no natural anchor points though. u should always test the bolt before use though, and a bolt plate is better than rying to tie the tape around the bolt. bolts just arnt that big. we tend to alos use 1 inch tubluar tape

James Shadlow



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RE: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays Lee Etherington Mar 22, 2001

Prussik cord can be used to loop around bolts, behind the head (tied tightly)to save using bolt plates, not the safest way of course but it works. Just loop the cord around the bolts and tie together to create an even load between the bolts, one place this works is at Empress falls, there are three bolts at the top of the falls for the anchor.

lee.

Canyon update localfocus@zeta.org.au Mar 22, 2001
There is a Dead wallaby in the upper reaches of Serendipity, dont
drink the water, Whungee Wheengee is spectacular as ever, wollangambe
is still up a bit but crystal clear, and getting colder! It is a bit
depressing when you start to see lots of multi coloured mushrooms, it
heralds the arrival of autumn and the end of wet canyoning season (at
least comfortable wet canyoning season)
Through the grapevine i heard that the very unfortunate lady who
drowned last week couldnt swim, seems rediculous to take someone who
can't swim into a flooded canyon... There is also some question as to
whether the inexperienced couple were paying (quasi-commercial) the
experienced 'guide' who was unlicensed, uninsured and probably
unqualified.
lee
Locations for abseil training. Mathew Black Mar 23, 2001
Peoples,
 
I have found that,
 
    Yellow Rock is great and easy to get to. It now has a shelter up on top with a few chair / table setups and a few small BBQ facilities wood burning only. Have a gander in a street directory that should show you how to find it. The drops are about 10 - 25m some good anchor points and some not so good. But it is very good for training. Nice view.
 
    Bowen Mountain is another good one, park as close to the observatory as possible approx 200m (look at the directory again) hoof it down the fire trail another 250 - 300m. Firstly there is a small rock pergoda, go past this. When the trail drops below the obvious cliffs this is where the fun is. Before the trail drops go along the ridge folowing the track there are various anchor points mainly trees the drops are about 10 - 18m or so (not actually measured them) there is a nice knife edge, use rope protection the knife likes rope. (I know my 100 11mm is now 88 & 12).
 
    Wheeny Creek (Tennyson ??) Comelroy Rd or something very much like it (not so sure on the spelling), north off Bells line of Rd at Kurmond. At the picnic area at the bottom of the dirt Rd you can find a few small drops, again 10 - 20m. One good overhang, but getting up there to fix the rope is a challenge, be careful. At one point you can either jump across or crawl, I crawl. It can get rather cool down here near the creek so summer, I think is best.
 
    Colo River at the bridge. Turn left just before the bridge. Then turn right to go east along beside the river. The obvious drops are about 250m along the Rd. Take care in getting to the top although this is much easier than Wheeny Creek. The drops are approx 45 - 50 m from the top down. This is also a good climbing area. The parking is about 200m further on or back at the bridge. I have found it best during the winter as the face is NW so too hot during summer.
 
I suppose the location is up to you and where your victims er trainees are coming from. Bowen Mtn would get my vote, as you have a large variety and good anchors back from the edge, enabeling on rope tutorial before the point of no return. I also suggest that you strongly do not attempt head first off the knife using an 8 as your decender, good chance of a larks foot. Ha, Ha, Ha.
 
Mat :)
Re: Flash flooding canyons query David L. Jones Mar 23, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "John R. Shadlow" <shadjr@i...> wrote:
> Just curious,
>
> If people can't read a topo map, what are they doing canyoning by
> themselves?
>
> John R. Shadlow

I agree, being able to read (and taking) a topo map should be
compulsary. The only exception I can think of is the Grand Canyon
which is a fully maintained track.

Dave :)
moRe: Bolt belays David L. Jones Mar 23, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> Prussik cord can be used to loop around bolts, behind the head (tied
> tightly)to save using bolt plates, not the safest way of course but
it
> works. Just loop the cord around the bolts and tie together to
create an
> even load between the bolts, one place this works is at Empress
falls, there
> are three bolts at the top of the falls for the anchor.
> lee.

I'm going to do Empress Falls soon, is there a natural anchor up
there? A big tree you can put a nice big sling around?

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: Places for abseil training andrew_mitchell@my-deja.com Mar 23, 2001
If you want local to the city then Diamond Bay (North of Bondi) is
pretty good. But on a weekend you might have to compete with the
commercial operators that are licenced to take groups there. About
500m or so south of the lighthouse there's a reserve and a little
gully. It almost feels like a canyon except you can see the surf. In
the gully there's a couple of drops (about 10-15m and about 45m
overhanging). Both drops are rigged with bolts though (carrot bolts,
so bring bolt plates, or whatever the term is). Closer to the
lighthouse there's a big (about 60m) drop from what looks like a big
high dive platform over the ocean. Bolts again...or if you *really*
want to feel like you are in a canyon (and you have a deathwish), you
could put a sling around the rickety wooden fence. Walk out to the
gully via a series of ledges above the waterline - a scrambling rope
comes in handy.


--- In OzCanyons@y..., "David L. Jones" <tronnort@y...> wrote:
> Does anyone know of any good spots to go abseil training?
> I.E, some place scenic, easy and quick to get to, suitable for
canyon
> type training (eg, tree belays, double rope pulldown, pool at the
> bottom would be nice :) etc), without actually having to go to a
> canyon.
> I'm thinking the beaches or something like that, but I dont want to
> have to spend weekends searching for decent spots. I've heard of a
> few spots but only have vauge references.
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Bolt belays Flynn Mar 23, 2001
The idea with the bolt plates is that you place them over the head of the
carrot (a bashed in bolt normally 3/8" but sometimes 7 or 8mm) The plates
are key holed so you then need to clip a 'binner in to prevent the plate
coming off. You can pick up plates from climbing/ outdoor shops.

As John pointed out sometimes to come across different sized bolts and
bolts from different manufactures or with different thread types often have
different sized heads. Another thing you need to worry about is that
smaller sport climbing 'binners sometimes have too small a diameter to lock
the plate on the bolt.

Most bolts you'll come across these days are ring bolts or have fixed
hangers anyway.






At 04:59 AM 3/23/01 -0000, you wrote:
> <> wrote:
>> In most Canyons in the Blue Mt the bolts are not needed and often
> disappear
>> as fast as they are placed (removing them is actually promoted by a
> lot of
>
> So I've noticed! ;)
>
>> canyoners). I'm not keen on using those bolts that are there
> anyway, a mate
>> of mine had a couple of bolts pull on him while climbing at
> Marangaroo Ck
>> and almost took a grounder. After checking the bolts he found that
> the guy
>> putting them in had cut the wrong tapper so how much can you trust
> a bolt
>> that's been put in by someone you've never met in a harsh canyon
> environment.
>>
>> You should get into the habit of looking for alternate natural
> anchors in
>> case you ever come across a boltless canyon. That said some sling
> or chord,
>> steel binners and some bolt plates should cover what you need for
> all the
>> bolt anchors you come across.
>>
>> Good luck
>>
>> Craig
>
> I would only use a bolt anchor as a last resort I think, or maybe as
> an additional anchor point.
> So how do you actually attach to the bolt?. I'm assuming you use the
> anchor plate (never seen one), attach a bit of sling to that, and
> then feed your rope through the sling?
> I've heard of people tying sling directly onto the bolt, I'm assuming
> this is for ring bolts?
>
> Also, what type of sling is best?, I've got some 25mm webbing tape
> which looks pretty strong to me, would that be sufficient?
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
>
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Re: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays John R. Shadlow Mar 24, 2001
Dave,

There is a man-made anchor at the top of the abseil in Empress, it is
not hard to find, jusrt be careful when rigging the rope, as the top IS
slippery. As to natural anchors....well......

I'd use the one provided.

Cheers,
John R. Shadlow

----- Original Message -----
From: "David L. Jones" <tronnort@...>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2001 2:07 pm
Subject: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays

> --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> > Prussik cord can be used to loop around bolts, behind the head (tied
> > tightly)to save using bolt plates, not the safest way of course
> but
> it
> > works. Just loop the cord around the bolts and tie together to
> create an
> > even load between the bolts, one place this works is at Empress
> falls, there
> > are three bolts at the top of the falls for the anchor.
> > lee.
>
> I'm going to do Empress Falls soon, is there a natural anchor up
> there? A big tree you can put a nice big sling around?
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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>
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>
>
>
Re: Flash flooding canyons query Derek Hazell Mar 24, 2001
Hi John
The point of my comment was not to say whether I can read a
topographic map or not but to say that there is more to canyoning
than simply commonsense - there is a lot to learn and we need to
encourage people to ask questions - if we simply say that something
is commonsense then some people may be discouraged from asking
questions about the issue because they might think they look stupid.

cheers
Derek

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "John R. Shadlow" <shadjr@i...> wrote:
> Just curious,
>
> If people can't read a topo map, what are they doing canyoning by
> themselves?
>
> John R. Shadlow
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Derek Hazell <derek_hazell@y...>
> Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:16 pm
> Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash flooding canyons query
>
> > I think though commonsense is really necessary in canyoning,
there
> > is
> > heaps for me and perhaps others to learn about canyoning that is
> > not
> > exactly "commonsense" - ie re the flash floods issue you need to
> > know
> > about the surface area of catchment area, slope of catchment
area,
> > how to read a topo map to work this out, the porousness of the
> > ground, how long the rain has been going for, etc.
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash flooding canyons query John R. Shadlow Mar 24, 2001
Derek,

I stand corrected. I did not mean to contradict your argument that
canyoning is not simply common-sense. I just think that being able to
read a topo is one of the things which is required learning for
canyoning (actually, and any other out-bush activity), especially if
people are going to go by themselves. I encourage people to ask about
using a topo, because if they can't, things will go wrong, people who
are experienced shouldn't just shrug and laugh and say "topo? that's
common-sense", otherwise inexperienced poeple won't ask, and have
accidents.

Cheers,
John R. Shadlow
----- Original Message -----
From: Derek Hazell <derek_hazell@...>
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2001 1:51 am
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash flooding canyons query

> Hi John
> The point of my comment was not to say whether I can read a
> topographic map or not but to say that there is more to canyoning
> than simply commonsense - there is a lot to learn and we need to
> encourage people to ask questions - if we simply say that
> something
> is commonsense then some people may be discouraged from asking
> questions about the issue because they might think they look stupid.
>
> cheers
> Derek
>
> --- In OzCanyons@y..., "John R. Shadlow" <shadjr@i...> wrote:
> > Just curious,
> >
> > If people can't read a topo map, what are they doing canyoning
> by
> > themselves?
> >
> > John R. Shadlow
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Derek Hazell <derek_hazell@y...>
> > Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:16 pm
> > Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Flash flooding canyons query
> >
> > > I think though commonsense is really necessary in canyoning,
> there
> > > is
> > > heaps for me and perhaps others to learn about canyoning that
> is
> > > not
> > > exactly "commonsense" - ie re the flash floods issue you need
> to
> > > know
> > > about the surface area of catchment area, slope of catchment
> area,
> > > how to read a topo map to work this out, the porousness of the
> > > ground, how long the rain has been going for, etc.
>
>
>
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>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Bolt belays Flynn Mar 24, 2001
> I would only use a bolt anchor as a last resort I think, or maybe as
> an additional anchor point.
> So how do you actually attach to the bolt?. I'm assuming you use the
> anchor plate (never seen one), attach a bit of sling to that, and
> then feed your rope through the sling?
> I've heard of people tying sling directly onto the bolt, I'm assuming
> this is for ring bolts?
>
> Also, what type of sling is best?, I've got some 25mm webbing tape
> which looks pretty strong to me, would that be sufficient?
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)


If you're not sure about anchors and how to rig them you really should go
and do an Advanced Abseil Course as it's something thats best learnt by
demo. I know these courses are expensive but you're better of poor then dead.

If a course is out of the question there are a few good books about that
would be worth a read.

These include Climbing Anchors, More Climbing Anchors and Self Rescue from
the how to rock climb series which are published by Falcon Publishing. I've
also stumbled across a couple of vertical caving books that dealt with rope
work, knotts and anchors but I can't remember what they were called. You
should be able to get them in climbing stores or through Dymocks, you could
also try your local library.
Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Fortress David L. Jones Mar 25, 2001
Anyone know how long Fortress Canyon takes to do roughly (for a two
man experienced team)?
Was thinking about it for this weekend, but don't have time for an
overly long day. I think it's a "short day" canyon in the guide, but
a quick glance at the topo seems to indicate it's got a fair bit of
hiking.

Thanks
Dave :)
Caving Books John Chisholm Mar 25, 2001
I've also stumbled across a couple of vertical caving books that
dealt with rope work, knotts and anchors but I can't remember
what they were called.

They are called SRT and Vertical
one by Al Warrild and one by mmm, another chap.
You should pick them up at most outdoor shops.
John C.
Re: Bolt belays John Chisholm Mar 25, 2001
Most bolts you'll come across these days are ring bolts or have
fixed hangers anyway.

mmm, I'd be tempted to say I still come across more old carrots than
fancy stainless fixed hangers. But it depends on where you go, the
popular climbing crags are gradualy updating the fixed pro. but if
you are going into the wilds tou are more often going to come across
a rusted old carrot. With no apparent reason for it to be there.

John C.
Re: [OzCanyons] Fortress Tom Brennan Mar 25, 2001
> Anyone know how long Fortress Canyon takes to do roughly (for a two
> man experienced team)?
> Was thinking about it for this weekend, but don't have time for an
> overly long day. I think it's a "short day" canyon in the guide, but
> a quick glance at the topo seems to indicate it's got a fair bit of
> hiking.

From memory, we left the car at about 9:30am, back at around 2:30pm, and a
fairly inexperienced party. We had about 45mins break for lunch. The hiking
is relatively easy, and it's not that significant.

cheers
tom
King George Canyon Dry Section Margaret Covi Mar 25, 2001
I was planning to do King George Canyon Dry Section next week. I have not done it before & have looked at the topo map & can see that though it only starts a couple of kilometres back, it has quite a few feeder creeks.
To avoid possible problems, does anyone know whether it is flooded, or if it tends to flood in rainy periods?
Thanks.
Margaret
Re: Fortress David L. Jones Mar 26, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> > Anyone know how long Fortress Canyon takes to do roughly (for a
two
> > man experienced team)?
> > Was thinking about it for this weekend, but don't have time for
an
> > overly long day. I think it's a "short day" canyon in the guide,
but
> > a quick glance at the topo seems to indicate it's got a fair bit
of
> > hiking.
>
> From memory, we left the car at about 9:30am, back at around
2:30pm, and a
> fairly inexperienced party. We had about 45mins break for lunch.
The hiking
> is relatively easy, and it's not that significant.
>
> cheers
> tom

Thanks for that Tom, sounds like a go'er. Will be the top of my list
for this weekend :)

Regards
Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Fortress Gary Brown Mar 26, 2001
If you have a decent 4WD you can cut about 1- 2hrs off the trip by driving past the No Vehicular access sign. It's a bit tricky for the first 50m or so but then the road is actually quite good. You should be able to do the Canyon in about 4 - 5 hrs with 2 but the view at the end is worth savouring if its a clear day so I'd recommend allowing 6-7 hrs for a round trip from the mt Hay Rd.

Cheers
GARY

"David L. Jones" wrote:

Anyone know how long Fortress Canyon takes to do roughly (for a two
man experienced team)?
Was thinking about it for this weekend, but don't have time for an
overly long day. I think it's a "short day" canyon in the guide, but
a quick glance at the topo seems to indicate it's got a fair bit of
hiking.

Thanks
Dave :)
 
 


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Re: Fortress Karen Mar 26, 2001
The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason. If
individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them but I do
not think it should be encouraged by this group.
Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the environment and
respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a couple of kms
further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others think?

bye
Karen



--- In OzCanyons@y..., Gary Brown <gbrown@g...> wrote:
> If you have a decent 4WD you can cut about 1- 2hrs off the trip by
> driving past the No Vehicular access sign. It's a bit tricky for the
> first 50m or so but then the road is actually quite good. You
should be
> able to do the Canyon in about 4 - 5 hrs with 2 but the view at the
end
> is worth savouring if its a clear day so I'd recommend allowing 6-7
hrs
> for a round trip from the mt Hay Rd.
>
> Cheers
> GARY
>
> "David L. Jones" wrote:
>
> > Anyone know how long Fortress Canyon takes to do roughly (for a
two
> > man experienced team)?
> > Was thinking about it for this weekend, but don't have time for an
> > overly long day. I think it's a "short day" canyon in the guide,
but
> > a quick glance at the topo seems to indicate it's got a fair bit
of
> > hiking.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Dave :)
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> [Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here!]
> Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here!
>
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Re: Fortress David L. Jones Mar 26, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Karen" <lawsonk@m...> wrote:
>
> The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason. If
> individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them but I
do
> not think it should be encouraged by this group.
> Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the environment and
> respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a couple of kms
> further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others think?
>
> bye
> Karen

I certainly agree Karen. Even if I had a 4WD I wouldn't venture past
any such sign or locked gate etc, but maybe 4WDrivers are a different
bread?, maybe it just encourages them further?
I'd prefer to walk than churn up the track, scare the wildlife and
pollute the air even further.

Dave :)
Dobi Rope Washer David L. Jones Mar 26, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Warren Keen <waz@e...> wrote:
> A friend of mine who works for some police special response thingy
says
> that he puts his rope in the washing machine with some Softly fabric
> softener, but this is probably 'cause they abseil really fast on
twisted
> Figure 8's and burn the crap out of the rope.
>
> Haven't tried this but it looks pretty fancy......
>
> waz
>
> http://www.spelean.com.au/DOBI/DOBIindex.html

For everyones information:
The Dobi Rope Washer is about $36 (*gulp*) and available from
AlpSport, Eastwood Camping and other places.

Dave :)
Re: Fortress David L. Jones Mar 26, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Gary Brown <gbrown@g...> wrote:
> If you have a decent 4WD you can cut about 1- 2hrs off the trip by
> driving past the No Vehicular access sign. It's a bit tricky for the
> first 50m or so but then the road is actually quite good. You
should be
> able to do the Canyon in about 4 - 5 hrs with 2 but the view at the
end
> is worth savouring if its a clear day so I'd recommend allowing 6-7
hrs
> for a round trip from the mt Hay Rd.
>
> Cheers
> GARY

Thanks for the time estimates Gary, I've got a pretty good idea of
what I'm in for now.

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Fortress Gary Brown Mar 26, 2001
The only reason there is a No Access sign on the road which is clearly marked on the maps as a 4WD track is because a couple of years ago there was a wash away at the beginning of the road making it difficult for anything but a larger 4WD to navigate. The last time I was on it I came across a NPWS ranger on the road ie. they still use it. The only way to churn up the track would be to attempt it in the wet which would be irresponsible. As far as frightening the wildlife goes........I am all for preservation of our environment and especially our canyons. I would not drive into an area if I thought that there was a chance of doing any damage. Please go and look at the track before passing judgement.

Cheers
GARY

"David L. Jones" wrote:

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Karen" <lawsonk@m...> wrote:
>
> The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason. If
> individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them but I
do
> not think it should be encouraged by this group.
>  Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the environment and
> respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a couple of kms
> further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others think?
>
> bye
> Karen

I certainly agree Karen. Even if I had a 4WD I wouldn't venture past
any such sign or locked gate etc, but maybe 4WDrivers are a different
bread?, maybe it just encourages them further?
I'd prefer to walk than churn up the track, scare the wildlife and
pollute the air even further.

Dave :)
 


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Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Fortress Matthew Black Mar 27, 2001
When I did Fortress 2-3 years ago you could drive up the Mt hay Rd in normal 2wd vehicles. I did it in about 7hrs. Not to experienced at the time. Have fun. The exit point is about 50m back from the edge, on the west side. Be careful on the edge of the drop into the grose valley (which marks the end) it could be very slippery.
 
On another note. My wife is due to give birth tomorrow (but actually when is anyones guess) to # 4. So I don't know if I could make the Yileen Group on Sat. (Hopefully bubs will come accordingly so I can go, Yippee!!!!!)
 
Rgrds Mat.
 

The only reason there is a No Access sign on the road which is clearly marked on the maps as a 4WD track is because a couple of years ago there was a wash away at the beginning of the road making it difficult for anything but a larger 4WD to navigate. The last time I was on it I came across a NPWS ranger on the road ie. they still use it. The only way to churn up the track would be to attempt it in the wet which would be irresponsible. As far as frightening the wildlife goes........I am all for preservation of our environment and especially our canyons. I would not drive into an area if I thought that there was a chance of doing any damage. Please go and look at the track before passing judgement.

Cheers
GARY

"David L. Jones" wrote:

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Karen" <lawsonk@m...> wrote:
>
> The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason. If
> individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them but I
do
> not think it should be encouraged by this group.
>  Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the environment and
> respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a couple of kms
> further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others think?
>
> bye
> Karen

I certainly agree Karen. Even if I had a 4WD I wouldn't venture past
any such sign or locked gate etc, but maybe 4WDrivers are a different
bread?, maybe it just encourages them further?
I'd prefer to walk than churn up the track, scare the wildlife and
pollute the air even further.

Dave :)
 


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Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Fortress Flynn Mar 27, 2001
I was a keen 4WDer long before I was a canyoner but I'd have to say that I
agree with Karen. If the roads been closed stay off it. If you think the
road should be open then by all means petition the relevant authorities to
see if it can be reopened. Blatently ignoring the rules will only make it
worse for the rest of us.

If you don't think it's worth the walk don't go.



At 02:50 AM 3/27/01 -0000, you wrote:
>
> The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason. If
> individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them but I do
> not think it should be encouraged by this group.
> Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the environment and
> respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a couple of kms
> further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others think?
>
> bye
> Karen
>
>
>
><> wrote:
>> If you have a decent 4WD you can cut about 1- 2hrs off the trip by
>> driving past the No Vehicular access sign. It's a bit tricky for the
>> first 50m or so but then the road is actually quite good. You
> should be
>> able to do the Canyon in about 4 - 5 hrs with 2 but the view at the
> end
>> is worth savouring if its a clear day so I'd recommend allowing 6-7
> hrs
>> for a round trip from the mt Hay Rd.
>>
>> Cheers
>> GARY
>>
>>"" wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone know how long Fortress Canyon takes to do roughly (for a
> two
>>> man experienced team)?
>>> Was thinking about it for this weekend, but don't have time for an
>>>"" canyon in the guide,
> but
>>> a quick glance at the topo seems to indicate it's got a fair bit
> of
>>> hiking.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Dave :)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> [Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here!]
>> Paid Net2phone Advertisement - Click Here!
>>
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Fortress David L. Jones Mar 27, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Gary Brown <gbrown@g...> wrote:
> The only reason there is a No Access sign on the road which is
clearly
> marked on the maps as a 4WD track is because a couple of years ago
there
> was a wash away at the beginning of the road making it difficult for
> anything but a larger 4WD to navigate. The last time I was on it I
came
> across a NPWS ranger on the road ie. they still use it. The only
way to
> churn up the track would be to attempt it in the wet which would be
> irresponsible. As far as frightening the wildlife goes........I am
all
> for preservation of our environment and especially our canyons. I
would
> not drive into an area if I thought that there was a chance of
doing any
> damage. Please go and look at the track before passing judgement.
>
> Cheers
> GARY

"No vehicular access" to me means that the road is "closed", and the
sign would have been placed by the NPWS. I would repsect that and not
go in unless I checked with them that it was ok.
Now it certainly might be true that the only reason the NPWS put this
sign up was because of difficult access, but there is no way of
knowing that unless you actually check with them. I wouldn't just go
there and check out the road and think to myself "it's not dangerous,
I can do it" and make up my own mind. You don't know if there are
other reasons (wildlife, revegetation etc) that you don't know about.
Have you actually talked to them and know this for a fact?
Of course the NPWS service use it, they are the ones that maintain
our canyons and parklands, it's their job. Just becuase they are on
there, doesn't mean we have the right as well.

Dave :)
Re: Fortress Karen Mar 27, 2001
-
I contacted National Parks but unfortunately the Ranges are at a
Conference this week. So I will try again next week.
As far as being clearly marked on the map this does not necessarily
mean you can drive along it ( as experienced map users will know). In
the map index it states 'Depiction of roads and tracks does not
necessarily indicate public access'.
I have not been to the area for a while but I noticed on the new
Katoomba 1:25,000 map that there is a locked gate marked at the start
of the road. Knowing topo maps as I do this may or may not be correct
(hence the reason for contacting NPWS). But I am sure someone out
there can tell me whether this is correct?
I think this area is also part of the proposed Grose Wilderness and
so let's all try to protect it and not degrade it any further,

bye
Karen



-- In OzCanyons@y..., Gary Brown <gbrown@g...> wrote:
> The only reason there is a No Access sign on the road which is
clearly
> marked on the maps as a 4WD track is because a couple of years ago
there
> was a wash away at the beginning of the road making it difficult for
> anything but a larger 4WD to navigate. The last time I was on it I
came
> across a NPWS ranger on the road ie. they still use it. The only
way to
> churn up the track would be to attempt it in the wet which would be
> irresponsible. As far as frightening the wildlife goes........I am
all
> for preservation of our environment and especially our canyons. I
would
> not drive into an area if I thought that there was a chance of
doing any
> damage. Please go and look at the track before passing judgement.
>
> Cheers
> GARY
>
> "David L. Jones" wrote:
>
> > --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Karen" <lawsonk@m...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason. If
> > > individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them
but I
> > do
> > > not think it should be encouraged by this group.
> > > Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the environment
and
> > > respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a couple of
kms
> > > further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others think?
> > >
> > > bye
> > > Karen
> >
> > I certainly agree Karen. Even if I had a 4WD I wouldn't venture
past
> > any such sign or locked gate etc, but maybe 4WDrivers are a
different
> > bread?, maybe it just encourages them further?
> > I'd prefer to walk than churn up the track, scare the wildlife and
> > pollute the air even further.
> >
> > Dave :)
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> [www.newaydirect.com]
>
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Fortress Gary Brown Mar 27, 2001
I'm sorry to have stirred up such a fuss. I suppose I should have thought about it before posting because I don't want to give anyone the wrong idea. It was NWPS who informed me about the access to the road however this was nearly 3 years ago. Perhaps the situation has now changed. I do not want to be seen by anyone as encouraging others to flaunt the "rules".
Sorry
GARY

Karen wrote:

-
I contacted National Parks but unfortunately the Ranges are at a
Conference this week. So I will try again next week.
As far as being clearly marked on the map this does not necessarily
mean you can drive along it ( as experienced map users will know). In
the map index it states 'Depiction of roads and tracks does not
necessarily indicate public access'.
I have not been to the area for a while but I noticed on the new
Katoomba 1:25,000 map that there is a locked gate marked at the start
of the road. Knowing topo maps as I do this may or may not be correct
(hence the reason for contacting NPWS). But I am sure someone out
there can tell me whether this is correct?
I think this area is also part of the proposed Grose Wilderness and
so let's all try to protect it and not degrade it any further,

bye
Karen
 
 

-- In OzCanyons@y..., Gary Brown <gbrown@g...> wrote:
> The only reason there is a No Access sign on the road which is
clearly
> marked on the maps as a 4WD track is because a couple of years ago
there
> was a wash away at the beginning of the road making it difficult for
> anything but a larger 4WD to navigate. The last time I was on it I
came
> across a NPWS ranger on the road ie. they still use it. The only
way to
> churn up the track would be to attempt it in the wet which would be
> irresponsible. As far as frightening the wildlife goes........I am
all
> for preservation of our environment and especially our canyons. I
would
> not drive into an area if I thought that there was a chance of
doing any
> damage. Please go and look at the track before passing judgement.
>
> Cheers
> GARY
>
> "David L. Jones" wrote:
>
> > --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Karen" <lawsonk@m...> wrote:
> > >
> > > The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason. If
> > > individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them
but I
> > do
> > > not think it should be encouraged by this group.
> > >  Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the environment
and
> > > respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a couple of
kms
> > > further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others think?
> > >
> > > bye
> > > Karen
> >
> > I certainly agree Karen. Even if I had a 4WD I wouldn't venture
past
> > any such sign or locked gate etc, but maybe 4WDrivers are a
different
> > bread?, maybe it just encourages them further?
> > I'd prefer to walk than churn up the track, scare the wildlife and
> > pollute the air even further.
> >
> > Dave :)
> >
> >
> >                    Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>   [www.newaydirect.com]
>
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
 


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Re: Fortress Karen Mar 27, 2001
Thanks for your comments Gary. There have been major changes in the
National Parks over the last few years and it is very hard to keep up
with everything.
bye
Karen



--- In OzCanyons@y..., Gary Brown <gbrown@g...> wrote:
> I'm sorry to have stirred up such a fuss. I suppose I should have
> thought about it before posting because I don't want to give anyone
the
> wrong idea. It was NWPS who informed me about the access to the road
> however this was nearly 3 years ago. Perhaps the situation has now
> changed. I do not want to be seen by anyone as encouraging others to
> flaunt the "rules".
> Sorry
> GARY
>
> Karen wrote:
>
> > -
> > I contacted National Parks but unfortunately the Ranges are at a
> > Conference this week. So I will try again next week.
> > As far as being clearly marked on the map this does not
necessarily
> > mean you can drive along it ( as experienced map users will
know). In
> > the map index it states 'Depiction of roads and tracks does not
> > necessarily indicate public access'.
> > I have not been to the area for a while but I noticed on the new
> > Katoomba 1:25,000 map that there is a locked gate marked at the
start
> > of the road. Knowing topo maps as I do this may or may not be
correct
> > (hence the reason for contacting NPWS). But I am sure someone out
> > there can tell me whether this is correct?
> > I think this area is also part of the proposed Grose Wilderness
and
> > so let's all try to protect it and not degrade it any further,
> >
> > bye
> > Karen
> >
> >
> >
> > -- In OzCanyons@y..., Gary Brown <gbrown@g...> wrote:
> > > The only reason there is a No Access sign on the road which is
> > clearly
> > > marked on the maps as a 4WD track is because a couple of years
ago
> > there
> > > was a wash away at the beginning of the road making it
difficult for
> >
> > > anything but a larger 4WD to navigate. The last time I was on
it I
> > came
> > > across a NPWS ranger on the road ie. they still use it. The only
> > way to
> > > churn up the track would be to attempt it in the wet which
would be
> > > irresponsible. As far as frightening the wildlife goes........I
am
> > all
> > > for preservation of our environment and especially our canyons.
I
> > would
> > > not drive into an area if I thought that there was a chance of
> > doing any
> > > damage. Please go and look at the track before passing
judgement.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > GARY
> > >
> > > "David L. Jones" wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In OzCanyons@y..., "Karen" <lawsonk@m...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The 'No Vehicular accsss' sign is there for a good reason.
If
> > > > > individuals want to ignore this sign then that is up to them
> > but I
> > > > do
> > > > > not think it should be encouraged by this group.
> > > > > Hopefully most dedicated canyoner's care for the
environment
> > and
> > > > > respect the 'rules' even though it may mean walking a
couple of
> > kms
> > > > > further. I am sure you will agree Dave. What do others
think?
> > > > >
> > > > > bye
> > > > > Karen
> > > >
> > > > I certainly agree Karen. Even if I had a 4WD I wouldn't
venture
> > past
> > > > any such sign or locked gate etc, but maybe 4WDrivers are a
> > different
> > > > bread?, maybe it just encourages them further?
> > > > I'd prefer to walk than churn up the track, scare the
wildlife and
> >
> > > > pollute the air even further.
> > > >
> > > > Dave :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > [www.newaydirect.com]
> > >
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> [www.debticated.com]
>
> >
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> >
> >
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Service.
RE: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays Lee Etherington Mar 28, 2001
No, but you can sling around something on the far left of the canyon, I
can't remember whether it is a rock, branch or bolt and go down there next
to the tree, it is a bit hairy but lets you avoid the water.
lee

-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Jones [mailto:tronnort@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2001 2:08 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] moRe: Bolt belays

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> Prussik cord can be used to loop around bolts, behind the head (tied
> tightly)to save using bolt plates, not the safest way of course but
it
> works. Just loop the cord around the bolts and tie together to
create an
> even load between the bolts, one place this works is at Empress
falls, there
> are three bolts at the top of the falls for the anchor.
> lee.

I'm going to do Empress Falls soon, is there a natural anchor up
there? A big tree you can put a nice big sling around?

Thanks
Dave :)



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Fortress Mathew Black Mar 28, 2001
Everybody,
 
At the time when I did Fortress you could drive along it as there were no gates. I reiterate what is being said re the gates, if they are there, they are there for a reason although we may not see it at the time (sometimes more like a hinderance).
But they are there and we should abide by the rules no matter how stupid it seems. Because the idiot who doesn't will probably spoil it for the rest.
 
With Hole-in-the-wall's new gate, I got rather lets say pissed at the extra walk in. But it's there for a reason although I could not see it at the time. With the new gate it still took 3 of us 5hrs 45min to back to car. Now that I think of it, there is no attempting to bypass the bogs on the road anymore, with your car. It was a bit rough for a 2wd. Perhaps this is the reason????
 
Gary,
Fortress has a fantastic lunch time spot at the top of the falls. Enjoy it and tell us what you think of it and any new stuff about it. As you can see most of us that have done it, have, a while ago.
 
Enjoy!!!!
 
Mat.
 
P.S. No dice on the bubs yet let you know later.
Re: Fortress Karen Mar 28, 2001
--

Hi Mat,

The reason the gate has been put in on the Hole in the Wall road (and
others in the area) is because it is the boundary of the recently
declared Wollemi Wilderness (as opposed to the National Park). The
policy is to close most roads in a Wilderness Area. Hope this info is
of interest,

bye
Karen







- In OzCanyons@y..., "Mathew Black" <biggles@i...> wrote:
> Everybody,
>
> At the time when I did Fortress you could drive along it as there
were no gates. I reiterate what is being said re the gates, if they
are there, they are there for a reason although we may not see it at
the time (sometimes more like a hinderance).
> But they are there and we should abide by the rules no matter how
stupid it seems. Because the idiot who doesn't will probably spoil it
for the rest.
>
> With Hole-in-the-wall's new gate, I got rather lets say pissed at
the extra walk in. But it's there for a reason although I could not
see it at the time. With the new gate it still took 3 of us 5hrs
45min to back to car. Now that I think of it, there is no attempting
to bypass the bogs on the road anymore, with your car. It was a bit
rough for a 2wd. Perhaps this is the reason????
>
> Gary,
> Fortress has a fantastic lunch time spot at the top of the falls.
Enjoy it and tell us what you think of it and any new stuff about it.
As you can see most of us that have done it, have, a while ago.
>
> Enjoy!!!!
>
> Mat.
>
> P.S. No dice on the bubs yet let you know later.
Access Gate to Hole In The Wall Canyon-Wilderness Peter Jamieson Mar 28, 2001

Hi guy’s, Re Karen and Mat’s comments about Gate’s

 

It’s great to see these parts of Australia being declared Wilderness, with so many thickheaded, money-hungy and corporate F&^%$#&^%wits still ripping apart our natural bush for such reasons as to have nice soft KLEENEX tissue paper to blow their snotty nose’s into, (what happened to the bushy blow, hanky) who don’t have the foggiest between an echidna and a rabbit even if they were sitting on one, I think wilderness declaration is imperative. As long as the correct procedures are implemented and maintained by the governing bodies (NPWS) and the general public, I fully support the idea, even if it means a bit more of a walk here or there. Although, there are some people who can’t see why there should not be a few exceptions, (check out the new guide book) like the ‘hole in the Wall’ track, fair enough, but where does that lead too, difficult to say. Still not as bad as the proposed multi lane highway along the Bells’ Line of Road dissecting the Wollomi Wilderness and the proposed Grose Wilderness, who’s going to put a gate on that track. There are about 20 canyons out there on the Hole In The Wall track that are very popular with the general public so changing the gate placement is debateable , this gate does makes the whole affair a different story. Maybe we should all buy a tent (as long as we are allowed to light a campfire)

 

Does everyone know that claustral has been closed?

PeteJ

 

"Wilderness comprises that last substantial remnants of the ecologically complete environment that once covered the earth."

Yileen Canyon James Shadlow Mar 31, 2001

hi everybody

this morning we did Yileen Canyon. i thought that the water was a tad cold, but my dad thought it was fine ( advantage of age, and fat and 40ness)

the last abseil was more than 40m like the book says, and we almost went and abseiled down the next 20m pitch instead of taking the track out. reasonable good flow of water through it, and the 6m abseil can be done as a jump at the moment. FUN!!!!!!

cya guys

James

PS. matt : any news on the baby?



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Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip David L. Jones Apr 1, 2001
Just got myself the latest 4th edition of CNS and was amazed to find
that Sheep Dip canyon is still described incorrectly. The one
described is Twister, Sheep Dip is another one entirely.
I thought this was one of the most well known mistakes of the last
issue. Is Rick Jamieson the only one that doesn't know?, or was it
left that way for a reason?
Anyone know the story behind it?

Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Yileen Canyon Lee Etherington Apr 1, 2001

Hey James,

 

Yilleen is a great canyon, very delicate, I’ve never jumped the first abseil but I’ve been tempted. I went down there when there was a bit of water flowing and it was awesome. It has a relatively small catchment, so if you know your weather patterns for that area it’s a good one to do in the wet. That abseil at the end is a ripper!!

Have you tried wearing a beanie on your noggin, it’s amazing how warm it can keep you, also some good thermals under a 3mm wetsuit and you’ll be doing them all year round.

 

Pete.

-----Original Message-----
From: James Shadlow [mailto:insane_climber@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:12 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Yileen Canyon

 

hi everybody

this morning we did Yileen Canyon. i thought that the water was a tad cold, but my dad thought it was fine ( advantage of age, and fat and 40ness)

the last abseil was more than 40m like the book says, and we almost went and abseiled down the next 20m pitch instead of taking the track out. reasonable good flow of water through it, and the 6m abseil can be done as a jump at the moment. FUN!!!!!!

cya guys

James

PS. matt : any news on the baby?

 


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RE: [OzCanyons] Yileen Canyon Neil Miller Apr 1, 2001
At 12:46 PM 2/04/2001 +1000, you wrote:

Hey James,

 

Yilleen is a great canyon, very delicate, I ve never jumped the first abseil but I ve been tempted. I went down there when there was a bit of water flowing and it was awesome. It has a relatively small catchment, so if you know your weather patterns for that area it s a good one to do in the wet. That abseil at the end is a ripper!!

Yileen was one of the first Canyons I ever did, and yes, it was a ripper, and no, I've never done the jump. Stupid thing is, we used to jump from higher than that out of willow trees into the river at Dubbo when I was a teenager.


Have you tried wearing a beanie on your noggin, it s amazing how warm it can keep you, also some good thermals under a 3mm wetsuit and you ll be doing them all year round.

I always wear a polypropylene t-shirt of skivvy under my wetsuit any ways, but I also have a wool beanie which is polypropylene lined as well. Yes, VERY warm. Also got myself a pair of finger less wool gloves last season, and they help as well.

Cheers

Neil


 

Pete.

-----Original Message-----
From: James Shadlow [mailto:insane_climber@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2001 6:12 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Yileen Canyon

 

hi everybody

this morning we did Yileen Canyon. i thought that the water was a tad cold, but my dad thought it was fine ( advantage of age, and fat and 40ness)

the last abseil was more than 40m like the book says, and we almost went and abseiled down the next 20m pitch instead of taking the track out. reasonable good flow of water through it, and the 6m abseil can be done as a jump at the moment. FUN!!!!!!

cya guys

James

PS. matt : any news on the baby?

 

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claustral side canyons scott hall Apr 2, 2001
dose anybody have any new info on the
closure of claustral?
i have herd that it wont be re-open until at least
after easter. i also herd that the side
canyons(ranon,thunder and others) to claustral are
closed too??????

scott hall

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Re: [OzCanyons] Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip Helmut Pfeil Apr 2, 2001
What about PJs Canyon being listed!!! I wonder if he has figured the
initials out?

BTW. Found some great stuff with Alan, Nenad and a few of the others on the
weekend. Yarramun Creek - from about 557 963 to 576 967. Great Canyon!!!
Also tributary at 559 963 - reversed a few waterfalls but were stopped by a
bigger one, 560 964 (Captains???) has 8 tunnels and a beaut camp cave at the
Yarramun junction, 563 965 - southern side, Very Very narrow slot!!!
reversible for about 80 metres, stopped by a large waterfall and extreme
narrowness, 568 965 also a very narrow slot - reversible a short way -
stopped by waterfall. Didn't have time to look much at 577 970 - very
vertical, lots of tricky drops to climb up. Exited to the south at 577 969.
3 hours of walking in the dark. Crossed the Gambe at Water Fall of Moss
pass. Can you put any names to the side canyons. Nenad suggested the name
"Up your bum" for the very, very narrow slot!?



----- Original Message -----
From: David L. Jones <tronnort@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 01, 2001 10:19 PM
Subject: [OzCanyons] Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip


> Just got myself the latest 4th edition of CNS and was amazed to find
> that Sheep Dip canyon is still described incorrectly. The one
> described is Twister, Sheep Dip is another one entirely.
> I thought this was one of the most well known mistakes of the last
> issue. Is Rick Jamieson the only one that doesn't know?, or was it
> left that way for a reason?
> Anyone know the story behind it?
>
> Dave :)
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip charybdias@hotmail.com Apr 2, 2001
This is not the only canyon described incorrectly. I wonder if Rick
Jamieson read the NPWS Canyon Code before he published it,
particularly point 8:
"Dont publicise "new" canyons or those in wilderness areas to
preserve oppurtunities for discovery and to minimise impacts"

RIK
--- In OzCanyons@egroups.com, "David L. Jones" <tronnort@y...> wrote:
> Just got myself the latest 4th edition of CNS and was amazed to
find
> that Sheep Dip canyon is still described incorrectly. The one
> described is Twister, Sheep Dip is another one entirely.
> I thought this was one of the most well known mistakes of the last
> issue. Is Rick Jamieson the only one that doesn't know?, or was it
> left that way for a reason?
> Anyone know the story behind it?
>
> Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip David Noble Apr 2, 2001
Helmut Pfeil wrote:
>
> What about PJs Canyon being listed!!! I wonder if he has figured the
> initials out?

I think he has it listed as "Snake Pit"?

>
> BTW. Found some great stuff with Alan, Nenad and a few of the others on the
> weekend. Yarramun Creek - from about 557 963 to 576 967. Great Canyon!!!
> Also tributary at 559 963 - reversed a few waterfalls but were stopped by a
> bigger one, 560 964 (Captains???) has 8 tunnels and a beaut camp cave at the
> Yarramun junction, 563 965 - southern side, Very Very narrow slot!!!
> reversible for about 80 metres, stopped by a large waterfall and extreme
> narrowness, 568 965 also a very narrow slot - reversible a short way -
> stopped by waterfall. Didn't have time to look much at 577 970 - very
> vertical, lots of tricky drops to climb up. Exited to the south at 577 969.
> 3 hours of walking in the dark. Crossed the Gambe at Water Fall of Moss
> pass. Can you put any names to the side canyons. Nenad suggested the name
> "Up your bum" for the very, very narrow slot!?

What about "Hopoate Canyon"?

I can remember seeing a very narrow slot in that section. More of a
crack I think?

I will bring a map to the climbing gym on Thursday - and we will have a
look at some names.

Dave

>

--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip James Shadlow Apr 2, 2001
<P> <BR>wat climbbing gym?????
<P>James
<P>  <B><I>David Noble
<dnoble@...></I></B> wrote: <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><TT>Helmut Pfeil
wrote:<BR>> <BR>> What about PJs Canyon being
listed!!! I wonder if he has figured the<BR>>
initials out?<BR><BR>I think he has it listed as
"Snake Pit"?<BR><BR>> <BR>> BTW. Found some
great stuff with Alan, Nenad and a few of the others
on the<BR>> weekend. Yarramun Creek - from about
557 963 to 576 967. Great Canyon!!!<BR>> Also
tributary at 559 963 - reversed a few waterfalls but
were stopped by a<BR>> bigger one, 560 964
(Captains???) has 8 tunnels and a beaut camp cave at
the<BR>> Yarramun junction, 563 965 - southern
side, Very Very narrow slot!!!<BR>> reversible for
about 80 metres, stopped by a large waterfall and
extreme<BR>> narrowness, 568 965 also a very narrow
slot - reversible a short way -<BR>> stopped by
waterfall. Didn't have time to look much at 577 970 -
very<BR>> vertical, lots of tricky drops to climb
up. Exited to the south at 577 969.<BR>> 3 hours of
walking in the dark. Crossed the Gambe at Water Fall
of Moss<BR>> pass. Can you put any names to the
side canyons.  Nenad suggested the name<BR>>
"Up your bum" for the very, very narrow
slot!?<BR><BR>What about "Hopoate Canyon"?<BR><BR>I
can remember seeing a very narrow slot in that
section. More of a<BR>crack I think?<BR><BR>I will
bring a map to the climbing gym on Thursday - and we
will have a<BR>look at some
names.<BR><BR>Dave<BR><BR>> <BR><BR>--
<BR>--------------------------<BR>David
Noble<BR>dnoble@...<BR><A
href="http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/">http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/</A><BR></TT><BR><!--
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Re: [OzCanyons] Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip Matthew Black Apr 2, 2001
Guys / Gals,

I was just discussing the 'Up your Bum' Canyon with my wife, aggreed it
should be called Hopoate Canyon. Then we read Dave's Note. Ha Ha Ha. Why not
call it Hopoate and imortalise the crack er um slot.

Dave,
Which climbing gym????? Approx time????
Rgrds
Mat.
P.S. No bubs yet.

----- Original Message -----
From: David Noble <dnoble@...>
To: <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip


> Helmut Pfeil wrote:
> >
> > What about PJs Canyon being listed!!! I wonder if he has figured the
> > initials out?
>
> I think he has it listed as "Snake Pit"?
>
> >
> > BTW. Found some great stuff with Alan, Nenad and a few of the others on
the
> > weekend. Yarramun Creek - from about 557 963 to 576 967. Great Canyon!!!
> > Also tributary at 559 963 - reversed a few waterfalls but were stopped
by a
> > bigger one, 560 964 (Captains???) has 8 tunnels and a beaut camp cave at
the
> > Yarramun junction, 563 965 - southern side, Very Very narrow slot!!!
> > reversible for about 80 metres, stopped by a large waterfall and extreme
> > narrowness, 568 965 also a very narrow slot - reversible a short way -
> > stopped by waterfall. Didn't have time to look much at 577 970 - very
> > vertical, lots of tricky drops to climb up. Exited to the south at 577
969.
> > 3 hours of walking in the dark. Crossed the Gambe at Water Fall of Moss
> > pass. Can you put any names to the side canyons. Nenad suggested the
name
> > "Up your bum" for the very, very narrow slot!?
>
> What about "Hopoate Canyon"?
>
> I can remember seeing a very narrow slot in that section. More of a
> crack I think?
>
> I will bring a map to the climbing gym on Thursday - and we will have a
> look at some names.
>
> Dave
>
> >
>
> --
> --------------------------
> David Noble
> dnoble@...
> http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Advice on rope David L. Jones Apr 2, 2001
Looking at getting myself another cayoning rope and am trying to
decide between the following:
- Rivory Takamaka bi-colour 9.4mm dry treated @$3.95/m (I already
have one of these and it's great but expensive)
- BlueWater 9mm dry treated @ $3.35/m
- Edelrid 9mm dry treated @ $3.45/m
- Beal 9mm bi-colour 9.5mm @2.95/m (Polypropylene core)

Any suggestions, comments?
Anyone know where I can get a better deal?

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip David Noble Apr 3, 2001
Matthew Black wrote:
>
> Guys / Gals,
>
> I was just discussing the 'Up your Bum' Canyon with my wife, aggreed it
> should be called Hopoate Canyon. Then we read Dave's Note. Ha Ha Ha. Why not
> call it Hopoate and imortalise the crack er um slot.
>
> Dave,
> Which climbing gym????? Approx time????

Martin accidently posted a private email to the mailing list rather than
to me (these things happen!) - thats why it had all those grid
references in it - now we will have to worry if they will appear in
Rick's 5th edition in a few years time. Yarramun is a pretty wild area -
and pretty pristine too. Lets hope it stays that way.

I replied to Martin's email - but didn't notice that the reply was going
to the mailing list - compounding his mistake. I often see Martin at the
Sydney Indoor Climbing Gym on Thursday evenings - and we often discuss
what we are doing on the next weekend - and what we have just done. So
sorry about he private banter!


> Rgrds
> Mat.
> P.S. No bubs yet.

I hope you name the bub after a canyon. The other "Dave Noble" (of
Wollemi Pine fame) - and his partner Jules recently had a baby girl -
and named her "Jasmine Danae Noble".

Regards

Dave


--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Tape Life John Shadlow Apr 3, 2001
Hi All

Does anyone know of any place to find out empirical data on the life /
strength of tapes? I know of plenty of sites for rope with good test
evidence. The reason I ask is that it occurred to me that if the life of a
tape subject to UV radiation and weather was known and Canyoners attached an
airline luggage type label with the date of placement then old tapes could
be used with more certainty. Until then its just cut and chop I suppose. Any
thoughts on the idea?

John
Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope Isaacs Apr 3, 2001
> - Edelrid 9mm dry treated @ $3.45/m
I can get the Edelrid 9mm dry at $3/m, but only in 200m reels. It's a pretty
good rope - and I prefer to stay right on 9mm to reduce weight & bulk of
long ropes.

If you shop around you should be able to find some pretty good prices on
200m reels, if you can find people to share the cost with.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: Tape Life rcwild@wildernessmail.net Apr 3, 2001
John,

Seems like a good idea, but too many variables to make it practical.
Some anchor locations will have more UV exposure than others. There
are also factors unrelated to time, such as abrasion. How was the
webbing used by previous parties? How much load has it already held?
When rope is pulled down directly through the webbing (without rap
rings), the nylon on nylon creates enough friction to damage the
webbing. The longer the abseil, the greater the damage.

These factors may be blindly ignored if there is a label on the
webbing that says "good until May 30, 2002".

It's better to make each group rely on their own judgment when
inspecting existing webbing. Personally, I would rather replace it
every time. The cost of replacing webbing is small compared to a life.

Rich
Re: Advice on rope David L. Jones Apr 3, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Isaacs" <pisaacsm@o...> wrote:
> > - Edelrid 9mm dry treated @ $3.45/m
> I can get the Edelrid 9mm dry at $3/m, but only in 200m reels. It's
a pretty
> good rope - and I prefer to stay right on 9mm to reduce weight &
bulk of
> long ropes.
>
> If you shop around you should be able to find some pretty good
prices on
> 200m reels, if you can find people to share the cost with.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell

Thanks,
Unfortunately I have a hard enough time finding people to come
canyoning, let alone fork out for equipment! :(
I'm only after 40m or maybe 60m to go with my other 40m Takamaka

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope David Noble Apr 3, 2001
Isaacs wrote:
>
> > - Edelrid 9mm dry treated @ $3.45/m

I got a length of this rope last summer - and so far it has lasted
pretty well - and has been down a lot of canyons. It is light in weight
and seems to handle pretty well.

This replaced an older edelrid dynamic rope (9mm) that seemed to last a
very long time (>20 years?) - and certainly was used down hundreds of
canyons. I'm not sure - but my anecdotal evidence suggests that dynamic
ropes last longer when used for canyoning compared to static ones(?). I
know this seems counter intuitive.

I also have a 55m length of Blue Water static - and it seems fine - but
is a bit stiffer than the edelrid static.

Dave

--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: Advice on rope rcwild@wildernessmail.net Apr 3, 2001
Dave,

The Beal rope floats well so it is great for canyons with a lot of
moving water, but suggest you avoid it for Blue Mountains sandstone.
The sheath will not hold up well to abrasion.

Rich
RE: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope John Shadlow Apr 3, 2001
I agree with Dave about dynamic rope life. I have an 11mm dynamic that I
have been using predominately for caving and it is still ok after 22 years
use. I think I will shed tears when I retire I
John

-----Original Message-----
From: David Noble [mailto:dnoble@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:39 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope

Isaacs wrote:
>
> > - Edelrid 9mm dry treated @ $3.45/m

I got a length of this rope last summer - and so far it has lasted
pretty well - and has been down a lot of canyons. It is light in weight
and seems to handle pretty well.

This replaced an older edelrid dynamic rope (9mm) that seemed to last a
very long time (>20 years?) - and certainly was used down hundreds of
canyons. I'm not sure - but my anecdotal evidence suggests that dynamic
ropes last longer when used for canyoning compared to static ones(?). I
know this seems counter intuitive.

I also have a 55m length of Blue Water static - and it seems fine - but
is a bit stiffer than the edelrid static.

Dave

--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/


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Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope Tom Brennan Apr 3, 2001
It would probably be of interest to know where all these prices are coming
from - assuming that the prices are for the general public and not limited to
particular people. Maybe people can let us know where they can get the prices
they are sending, and David can possibly collate and send to the list at the
end.

I was quoted $3.15/m at Mountain Equipment in Chatswood on Sunday for the
Edelrid 9mm dry treated. The shop assistant said that the BlueWater was a
better rope - tougher sheath - but they didn't have any in stock. Normally
they stock it at $3.95/m. I was also quoted $4.95/m at Snowgum in the city for
BlueWater - seemed extortionate to me? Friends have said Edelrid and BlueWater
are much the same. I got 60m of BlueWater at $3.50/m from Eastwood Camping -
the service there was good as well.

As an aside I bought the rope plus the rest of my canyoning gear at Eastwood
for less than the price of a rope at Snowgum - and no I don't have any
relationship with Eastwood Camping other than customer!

cheers
tom
> Looking at getting myself another cayoning rope and am trying to
> decide between the following:
> - Rivory Takamaka bi-colour 9.4mm dry treated @$3.95/m (I already
> have one of these and it's great but expensive)
> - BlueWater 9mm dry treated @ $3.35/m
> - Edelrid 9mm dry treated @ $3.45/m
> - Beal 9mm bi-colour 9.5mm @2.95/m (Polypropylene core)
>
> Any suggestions, comments?
> Anyone know where I can get a better deal?

> Thanks
> Dave
:)
Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope James Shadlow Apr 3, 2001

hi ppl

im in Royal Rangers and with our rocksports program we have a deal with snowgum to get things cheaper. i seem to remember seeing edelrid and bluewater 50m 11mm goin for around 180, same with dynamic 11mm. my dad will be able to tell you more on this line, as he buys the ropes, not me :P

James Shadlow

  Tom Brennan <tomb@...> wrote:

It would probably be of interest to know where all these prices are coming
from - assuming that the prices are for the general public and not limited to
particular people.  Maybe people can let us know where they can get the prices
they are sending, and David can possibly collate and send to the list at the
end.

I was quoted $3.15/m at Mountain Equipment in Chatswood on Sunday for the
Edelrid 9mm dry treated.  The shop assistant said that the BlueWater was a
better rope - tougher sheath - but they didn't have any in stock.  Normally
they stock it at $3.95/m.  I was also quoted $4.95/m at Snowgum in the city for
BlueWater - seemed extortionate to me?  Friends have said Edelrid and BlueWater
are much the same.  I got 60m of BlueWater at $3.50/m from Eastwood Camping -
the service there was good as well.

As an aside I bought the rope plus the rest of my canyoning gear at Eastwood
for less than the price of a rope at Snowgum - and no I don't have any
relationship with Eastwood Camping other than customer!

cheers
tom
> Looking at getting myself another cayoning rope and am trying to
> decide between the following:
> - Rivory Takamaka bi-colour 9.4mm dry treated @$3.95/m (I already
> have one of these and it's great but expensive)
> - BlueWater 9mm dry treated @ $3.35/m
> - Edelrid 9mm dry treated @ $3.45/m
> - Beal 9mm bi-colour 9.5mm @2.95/m (Polypropylene core)
>
> Any suggestions, comments?
> Anyone know where I can get a better deal?

> Thanks
> Dave
:)



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Re: Advice on rope Adam Bramwell Apr 3, 2001
Hi all,

Another rope to consider is the Cousins 10mm dry. Like the Beal, it
floats and this is indeed important in certain canyons! 10's provide
a tad more friction that 9's which gives an extra margin of safety for
tricky starts, long abseils and abseiling with a pack.

We've mixed up our ropes with Blue Water 9's and Cousins 10's and I
prefer the Cousins. They've lasted a good three season's of continual
club use.

Recently I had a friend chuck me a rope (I was in a pool before an
abseil) and it landed a few metres away from me the darn thing sank
straight to the bottom! Lucky it was only a 3m deep pool!

Cheers,
Adam


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Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Advice on rope canyonz Apr 3, 2001
How 'bout a rope bag with some holes for drainage and a bit of foam mat for
flotation? Cost about 20 or 30 of our miserable NZ dollars at any canvas
store, keeps everything tidy, has many uses and can be carried as bacpack as
well. Love the thing...

Julien

> Recently I had a friend chuck me a rope (I was in a pool before an
> abseil) and it landed a few metres away from me the darn thing sank
> straight to the bottom! Lucky it was only a 3m deep pool!
>
> Cheers,
> Adam
>
> __________________________________________________________________
> Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
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Re: Canyons Near Sydney 4th Edition - Sheep Dip John Chisholm Apr 3, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., David Noble <dnoble@o...> wrote:Martin
accidently posted a private email to the mailing list rather
than to me (these things happen!) - thats why it had all those grid
references in it - sorry about he private banter!

________________________________
please,
Don't apologise.
Mistakes happen (and I for one am willing to capitalise on
it).
(Insert Slightly cheeky grin here)
John C.
Re: Advice on rope David L. Jones Apr 3, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> It would probably be of interest to know where all these prices are
coming
> from - assuming that the prices are for the general public and not
limited to
> particular people. Maybe people can let us know where they can get
the prices
> they are sending, and David can possibly collate and send to the
list at the
> end.
>
> I was quoted $3.15/m at Mountain Equipment in Chatswood on Sunday
for the
> Edelrid 9mm dry treated. The shop assistant said that the
BlueWater was a
> better rope - tougher sheath - but they didn't have any in stock.
Normally
> they stock it at $3.95/m. I was also quoted $4.95/m at Snowgum in
the city for
> BlueWater - seemed extortionate to me? Friends have said Edelrid
and BlueWater
> are much the same. I got 60m of BlueWater at $3.50/m from Eastwood
Camping -
> the service there was good as well.
>
> As an aside I bought the rope plus the rest of my canyoning gear at
Eastwood
> for less than the price of a rope at Snowgum - and no I don't have
any
> relationship with Eastwood Camping other than customer!
>
> cheers
> tom

I got my prices from Eastwood (the Takamaka) and Alpsport (the
others). I get most of my stuff from Eastwood, but their prices on
rope were dearer than Alpsport (surprising to me), esp the bluewater
which Eastwood quoted me at something like $3.80 I think, but they
have it in stock.
Alpsport said they don't have the Bluewater in stock as the
manufacturer is having supply problems. They have the Edelrid in
stock and the Beal comming next week.

Both of those places give great service and advice.

Dave :)
Re: Advice on rope David L. Jones Apr 4, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> I was quoted $3.15/m at Mountain Equipment in Chatswood on Sunday
for the
> Edelrid 9mm dry treated. The shop assistant said that the
BlueWater was a
> better rope - tougher sheath - but they didn't have any in stock.
Normally
> they stock it at $3.95/m. I was also quoted $4.95/m at Snowgum in
the city for

I phoned Mountain Equipment in Chatswood today and they are now
wanting $3.95/m for the Edelrid 9mm dry!

Dave :)
Snow White Virus Isaacs Apr 4, 2001
I have received a couple of the Snow White virus emails to this address in
the last couple of days - and this mailing list is pretty much the only
place I use this address.

If anybody has received an email from "Hahaha" with the subject "Snowhite
and the Seven Dwarfs - The REAL story!", and the message body "Today,
Snowhite was turning 18. The 7 Dwarfs always where very educated and
polite with Snowhite. When they go out work at mornign, they promissed a
*huge* surprise. Snowhite was anxious. Suddlently, the door open, and the
Seven
Dwarfs enter..." this is the Snow White virus email. If you have run the
attatchment and are running windows, then you will be infected.

If this is the case, I can help you remove the virus if you get in touch
with me by private email, pisaacsm@... (a good, up-to-date virus
checker should do the job as well)

Also, if anybody else has received a couple of these emails in the last day
or 2, could you let me know by private email so I can either confirm or
eliminate this group as a source.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Advice on rope Tom Brennan Apr 4, 2001
> --- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> > I was quoted $3.15/m at Mountain Equipment in Chatswood on Sunday
> for the
> > Edelrid 9mm dry treated. The shop assistant said that the
>
> I phoned Mountain Equipment in Chatswood today and they are now
> wanting $3.95/m for the Edelrid 9mm dry!
>
> Dave :)

All I can imagine is that the rope was on special during the sale, and it's now
finished.

tom
Rope deal ccfo@bigpond.com Apr 4, 2001
Just picked up some 9mm rope from Alpsport Victoria Rd Ryde
Edelrid 9mm static $2.28 super stat dry $2.68 / metre

they are having a sale, think it ends today so call first.
Steve.
Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope Tom Brennan Apr 4, 2001
Well, I did a bit of a survey of ropes by ringing around some of the Sydney
outdoor stores. Being a relatively inexperienced canyoner, I learnt a fair
bit, but probably ended up with more unanswered questions than I started with.

The main problem was me not knowing enough about the various ropes and
manufacturers to start with, and simply not asking some of the right
questions. For example, I somewhat blindly assumed that if I asked for a
canyoning rope I would be offered a dry-treated one. In hindsight this was
probably not the case, and as a result some of the prices could be for non-dry.

Service and knowledgability seemed to vary considerably - Onrope, Eastwood
Camping and Alpsport were helpful and seemed relatively knowledgable. The
others (basically the major chains) weren't. A little surprising since most of
the outdoor stores tend to pride themselves on service.

One interesting comment I got was from the guy at Onrope, who said that he
didn't think it was worth paying extra to get dry-treated rope. I've always
been told that static dry-treated rope is best for canyoning as it doesn't take
up water as much. However dry-treating is apparently to stop the rope from
freezing while ice-climbing, and it only makes a small difference in terms of
preventing water take up while canyoning.

Other comments (various stores) included:
* Blue Water having a tougher sheath than Edelrid
* Edelrid and Blue Water being much the same, but Edelrid being quite a bit
cheaper
* Only stocking Edelrid as they didn't think the other ropes were as good
* Floating ropes being much better in terms of water resistance - however,
lower breaking strain and danger of polypropylene core melting at high
temperatures (fast descents?)
Feel free to comment on the comments - I have done my best to convey them as I
understood them, but they are not quotes.

In summary, the main ropes available that are aimed at canyoning seemed to be
(in order of popularity by number of stores stocking them):
* Edelrid Superstatic 9mm (Dry and Non-dry) (www.edelrid.de)
* Blue Water II +Plus 9mm (Dry and Non-dry) (www.bluewater-climbing.com)
* Rivory Takamaka Bicolour 9.3mm (Dry) (www.protee.fr/rivory)
* Roca Flota II 9.5mm (Floating) (www.rocaropes.com)
* Roca Espeleo? 9mm (Non-dry)
* Beal Bicolour 9.5mm (Floating?) (www.beal-planet.com)
Sterling (www.sterlingrope.com) and Mammut were also mentioned but didn't have
a 9mm static rope.

And so to the actual prices. Compared to some prices that have already been
mentioned in this discussion thread, there are some definite inconsistencies.
I have simply written down what was quoted to me by the sales staff over the
phone. If you are looking to buy, I suggest you confirm the price before
turning up! In particular, sales at the moment may change some prices
markedly - Paddy Pallin for example has 15% off the quoted prices until Easter.

Edelrid Superstatic 9mm (D=Dry treated, N= Not, ?= Didn't ask)
$2.45/m N Onrope
$2.75/m D Onrope
$3.25/m N Paddy Pallin - City
$3.40/m D Paddy Pallin - City
$3.47/m ? Alpsport
$3.95/m ? Snowgum - City
$3.95/m ? Mountain Design - City
$4.45/m N Mountain Equipment - Chatswood

Blue Water II +Plus 9mm (D=Dry treated, N= Not, ?= Didn't ask)
$2.85/m N Onrope
$3.35/m ? Alpsport
$3.50/m ? Eastwood Camping
$3.77/m D Onrope
$4.60/m D Wildsports Mail Order
$4.95/m D Snowgum - City

Rivory Takamaka Bicolour 9.3mm
$3.98/m Eastwood Camping (40m fixed length)
$4.32/m Wildsports Mail Order (60m fixed length)

Roca Flota II 9 (9.7mm)
$2.95/m Eastwood Camping (60m fixed length)

Roca Espeleo 9mm
$3.50/m N Mountain Equipment - Chatswood

Beal Bicolour 9.5mm
$2.80/m Alpsport (60m fixed length)

Contact Details
Alpsport (02) 9858 5844
Eastwood Camping ((02) 9858 5833
Mountain Design - City (02) 9267 3822
Mountain Equipment - Chatswood (02) 9419 6955
Mountain Equipment - City (02) 9264 5888
Onrope (02) 9709 6299
Paddy Pallin - City (02) 9264 2140
Snowgum - City (02) 9261 3435
Wildsports Mail Order www.wildsports.com.au

Hope this is of interest to some. If I have made mistakes etc please let me
know.

cheers
tom
Re: Advice on rope David L. Jones Apr 4, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> Well, I did a bit of a survey of ropes by ringing around some of
the Sydney
> outdoor stores. Being a relatively inexperienced canyoner, I
learnt a fair
> bit, but probably ended up with more unanswered questions than I
started with.
>
> The main problem was me not knowing enough about the various ropes
and
> manufacturers to start with, and simply not asking some of the
right
> questions. For example, I somewhat blindly assumed that if I asked
for a
> canyoning rope I would be offered a dry-treated one. In hindsight
this was
> probably not the case, and as a result some of the prices could be
for non-dry.
>
> Service and knowledgability seemed to vary considerably - Onrope,
Eastwood
> Camping and Alpsport were helpful and seemed relatively
knowledgable. The
> others (basically the major chains) weren't. A little surprising
since most of
> the outdoor stores tend to pride themselves on service.
>
> One interesting comment I got was from the guy at Onrope, who said
that he
> didn't think it was worth paying extra to get dry-treated rope.
I've always
> been told that static dry-treated rope is best for canyoning as it
doesn't take
> up water as much. However dry-treating is apparently to stop the
rope from
> freezing while ice-climbing, and it only makes a small difference
in terms of
> preventing water take up while canyoning.
>
> Other comments (various stores) included:
> * Blue Water having a tougher sheath than Edelrid
> * Edelrid and Blue Water being much the same, but Edelrid being
quite a bit
> cheaper
> * Only stocking Edelrid as they didn't think the other ropes were
as good
> * Floating ropes being much better in terms of water resistance -
however,
> lower breaking strain and danger of polypropylene core melting at
high
> temperatures (fast descents?)
> Feel free to comment on the comments - I have done my best to
convey them as I
> understood them, but they are not quotes.
>
> In summary, the main ropes available that are aimed at canyoning
seemed to be
> (in order of popularity by number of stores stocking them):
> * Edelrid Superstatic 9mm (Dry and Non-dry) (www.edelrid.de)
> * Blue Water II +Plus 9mm (Dry and Non-dry) (www.bluewater-
climbing.com)
> * Rivory Takamaka Bicolour 9.3mm (Dry) (www.protee.fr/rivory)
> * Roca Flota II 9.5mm (Floating) (www.rocaropes.com)
> * Roca Espeleo? 9mm (Non-dry)
> * Beal Bicolour 9.5mm (Floating?) (www.beal-planet.com)
> Sterling (www.sterlingrope.com) and Mammut were also mentioned but
didn't have
> a 9mm static rope.
>
> And so to the actual prices. Compared to some prices that have
already been
> mentioned in this discussion thread, there are some definite
inconsistencies.
> I have simply written down what was quoted to me by the sales staff
over the
> phone. If you are looking to buy, I suggest you confirm the price
before
> turning up! In particular, sales at the moment may change some
prices
> markedly - Paddy Pallin for example has 15% off the quoted prices
until Easter.
>
> Edelrid Superstatic 9mm (D=Dry treated, N= Not, ?= Didn't ask)
> $2.45/m N Onrope
> $2.75/m D Onrope
> $3.25/m N Paddy Pallin - City
> $3.40/m D Paddy Pallin - City
> $3.47/m ? Alpsport
> $3.95/m ? Snowgum - City
> $3.95/m ? Mountain Design - City
> $4.45/m N Mountain Equipment - Chatswood
>
> Blue Water II +Plus 9mm (D=Dry treated, N= Not, ?= Didn't ask)
> $2.85/m N Onrope
> $3.35/m ? Alpsport
> $3.50/m ? Eastwood Camping
> $3.77/m D Onrope
> $4.60/m D Wildsports Mail Order
> $4.95/m D Snowgum - City
>
> Rivory Takamaka Bicolour 9.3mm
> $3.98/m Eastwood Camping (40m fixed length)
> $4.32/m Wildsports Mail Order (60m fixed length)
>
> Roca Flota II 9 (9.7mm)
> $2.95/m Eastwood Camping (60m fixed length)
>
> Roca Espeleo 9mm
> $3.50/m N Mountain Equipment - Chatswood
>
> Beal Bicolour 9.5mm
> $2.80/m Alpsport (60m fixed length)
>
> Contact Details
> Alpsport (02) 9858 5844
> Eastwood Camping ((02) 9858 5833
> Mountain Design - City (02) 9267 3822
> Mountain Equipment - Chatswood (02) 9419 6955
> Mountain Equipment - City (02) 9264 5888
> Onrope (02) 9709 6299
> Paddy Pallin - City (02) 9264 2140
> Snowgum - City (02) 9261 3435
> Wildsports Mail Order www.wildsports.com.au
>
> Hope this is of interest to some. If I have made mistakes etc
please let me
> know.
>
> cheers
> tom

That's awesome Tom, thanks :)
I've also learned quite a bit just phoning around and talking to the
various places. I can confirm the Takamaka and Roca at Eastwood
Camping (have been there and physically seen them), they have two
Takamaka's left and they said once they are sold that's it.
The Takamaka is the only rope that I've seen that comes "packaged" as
a canyoning rope, with a guide and everything.

Sounds like OnRope and the Edelrid is the best bet, I didn't know
about OnRope before this post, thanks.

With everyone I've been talking too, I really get the impression that
it doesn't matter what rope you get, they are all basically the same
when it comes to canyoning use, and if you treat them right they will
last you a long time. Just get the cheapest you can.
Although the poly core float ones are the exception, they don't sound
as strong and durable as the others (which is of more importance than
floating I think). Anyway, my Takamaka floats and it's not a poly
core.

Dave :)
Discussion Forum Neil Miller Apr 5, 2001
Hey guys, I've been subscribed to this group since it started and have
found a lot of the stuff that is discussed quite helpful, the only problem
is, if you want to go back and look at the history of a discussion, it's a
lot of emails to go back through. So, I have made a cut down version of the
discussion forums I run on my site and setup a new discussion forum just
for Oz Canyoning.

The address is http://www.diveoz.com.au/canyons/canyons.asp if you want to
use it great, if you don't, no worries, it only took me 4 minutes to setup.
But, you do get a complete history of every discussion and thread etc.

No advertising, no registrations, just trying to give something useful to
the group.

Anyways, let me know what you think.

Cheers

Neil
Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope Flynn Apr 5, 2001
I'm not sure how true this is but I was told that the dry treatment on
ropes is just a film coating on the sheath which wears off fairly quickly
in the harsh conditions of canyoning and was designed more to lessen damage
from saltwater spray when the rope was used in coastal areas not for
absieling down gritty waterfalls.


At 05:52 AM 4/5/01 GMT, you wrote:
> Well, I did a bit of a survey of ropes by ringing around some of the
Sydney
> Being a relatively inexperienced canyoner, I learnt a fair
> bit, but probably ended up with more unanswered questions than I started
with.
>
> The main problem was me not knowing enough about the various ropes and
> manufacturers to start with, and simply not asking some of the right
> For example, I somewhat blindly assumed that if I asked for a
> In hindsight this was
> probably not the case, and as a result some of the prices could be for
>non-dry.
>
> Service and knowledgability seemed to vary considerably - Onrope, Eastwood
> The
> A little surprising since most of
> the outdoor stores tend to pride themselves on service.
>
> One interesting comment I got was from the guy at Onrope, who said that he
> I've always
> been told that static dry-treated rope is best for canyoning as it doesn't
>take
> However dry-treating is apparently to stop the rope from
> freezing while ice-climbing, and it only makes a small difference in
terms of
> preventing water take up while canyoning.
>
> Other comments (various stores) included:
> * Blue Water having a tougher sheath than Edelrid
> * Edelrid and Blue Water being much the same, but Edelrid being quite a bit
> cheaper
> * Only stocking Edelrid as they didn't think the other ropes were as good
> * Floating ropes being much better in terms of water resistance - however,
> lower breaking strain and danger of polypropylene core melting at high
> temperatures (fast descents?)
> Feel free to comment on the comments - I have done my best to convey them
>as I
> understood them, but they are not quotes.
>
> In summary, the main ropes available that are aimed at canyoning seemed
to be
> (in order of popularity by number of stores stocking them):
> * Edelrid Superstatic 9mm (Dry and Non-dry) (www.edelrid.de)
> * Blue Water II +Plus 9mm (Dry and Non-dry) (www.bluewater-climbing.com)
> * Rivory Takamaka Bicolour 9.3mm (Dry) (www.protee.fr/rivory)
> * Roca Flota II 9.5mm (Floating) (www.rocaropes.com)
> * Roca Espeleo? 9mm (Non-dry)
> * Beal Bicolour 9.5mm (Floating?) (www.beal-planet.com)
> Sterling (www.sterlingrope.com) and Mammut were also mentioned but didn't
>have
> a 9mm static rope.
>
> Compared to some prices that have already been
>
> I have simply written down what was quoted to me by the sales staff over
the
> If you are looking to buy, I suggest you confirm the price before
> In particular, sales at the moment may change some prices
> markedly - Paddy Pallin for example has 15% off the quoted prices until
>Easter.
>
> Edelrid Superstatic 9mm (D=Dry treated, N= Not, ?= Didn't ask)
> Onrope
> Onrope
> Paddy Pallin - City
> Paddy Pallin - City
> Alpsport
> Snowgum - City
> Mountain Design - City
> Mountain Equipment - Chatswood
>
> Blue Water II +Plus 9mm (D=Dry treated, N= Not, ?= Didn't ask)
> Onrope
> Alpsport
> Eastwood Camping
> Onrope
> Wildsports Mail Order
> Snowgum - City
>
> Rivory Takamaka Bicolour 9.3mm
> Eastwood Camping (40m fixed length)
> Wildsports Mail Order (60m fixed length)
>
> Roca Flota II 9 (9.7mm)
> Eastwood Camping (60m fixed length)
>
> Roca Espeleo 9mm
> Mountain Equipment - Chatswood
>
> Beal Bicolour 9.5mm
> Alpsport (60m fixed length)
>
> Contact Details
> (02) 9858 5844
> ((02) 9858 5833
> (02) 9267 3822
> (02) 9419 6955
> (02) 9264 5888
> (02) 9709 6299
> (02) 9264 2140
> (02) 9261 3435
> www.wildsports.com.au
>
> If I have made mistakes etc please let me
> know.
>
> cheers
> tom
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor FIND ANYONE Right Now!
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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Flynn

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Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Advice on rope Tom Brennan Apr 5, 2001
I bought a 30m Edelrid 9mm dry-treated from Paddy Pallin (city) tonight - cost
$87. The guy who served me was definitely in favour of the dry treatment, said
it reduced water absorbtion by 60%. He said that the dirt in the water was the
important reason to repel as much water as possible.

I was planning on just getting the normal 9mm, but it was only $4 more for the
dry treated and I figured it wasn't a huge financial burden...

cheers
tom

> I'm not sure how true this is but I was told that the dry treatment on
> ropes is just a film coating on the sheath which wears off fairly quickly
> in the harsh conditions of canyoning and was designed more to lessen damage
> from saltwater spray when the rope was used in coastal areas not for
> absieling down gritty waterfalls.
Re: Discussion Forum David L. Jones Apr 5, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Neil Miller <webguy@d...> wrote:
>
> Hey guys, I've been subscribed to this group since it started and
have
> found a lot of the stuff that is discussed quite helpful, the only
problem
> is, if you want to go back and look at the history of a discussion,
it's a
> lot of emails to go back through. So, I have made a cut down
version of the
> discussion forums I run on my site and setup a new discussion forum
just
> for Oz Canyoning.
>
> The address is http://www.diveoz.com.au/canyons/canyons.asp if you
want to
> use it great, if you don't, no worries, it only took me 4 minutes
to setup.
> But, you do get a complete history of every discussion and thread
etc.
>
> No advertising, no registrations, just trying to give something
useful to
> the group.
>
> Anyways, let me know what you think.
>
> Cheers
>
> Neil

Good idea Neil
But can this be done with within the Yahoo! group, that way all the
information is kept in a central location.
There is a database facility available which anyone can setup,
although I'm not sure how suitable it is for doing this.
Messages can also be sorted by thread, so you can get all the replys
to the one message one afetr the other without having to go through
the entire message list.

Dave :)
Re: Advice on rope David L. Jones Apr 5, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
>
> I'm not sure how true this is but I was told that the dry treatment
on
> ropes is just a film coating on the sheath which wears off fairly
quickly
> in the harsh conditions of canyoning and was designed more to
lessen damage
> from saltwater spray when the rope was used in coastal areas not for
> absieling down gritty waterfalls.

I've heard similar things, it will last about 1 year at most, or even
just one use if the conditions are brutal enough.

Would be nice to get the official word from the manufacturer

Dave :)
Re: Rope deal David L. Jones Apr 5, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., ccfo@b... wrote:
> Just picked up some 9mm rope from Alpsport Victoria Rd Ryde
> Edelrid 9mm static $2.28 super stat dry $2.68 / metre
>
> they are having a sale, think it ends today so call first.
> Steve.

I phoned Alpsport today and they said it was a 1 day special, but
when pushed said they would do the same deal again anytime. They
don't have any stock at the moment but they are getting some more in
next Tues.
So anyone wanting this deal should call them after tues.
I'll be getting myself a 60m non-dry static.

Much better deal than the 2nd Takamaka I had my eye on.

Dave :)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: [OzCanyons] Advice on rope Mark.Willetts@defence.gov.au Apr 5, 2001
Tom, what a great service you have provided, thanks. Mark W
Rope length David L. Jones Apr 5, 2001
Another question on rope...

What are the best rope lengths?
I've already got a 40m and was going to get another 60m. That would
allow me to do a 40m drop (in theory) with both ropes, a 30m drop
with just the one 60m or a 20m drop with just the 40m.
Does this sound like a good spread?, or will getting my new rope at
65m or 70m or whatever make it more versatile?

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Rope length Tom Brennan Apr 5, 2001
> Another question on rope...
>
> What are the best rope lengths?
Ask 5 people that question and you'll probably get 5 different answers. The
main things to consider are price, weight and need.

If you are doing mostly relatively well-known canyons, you will know pretty
much what ropes you will need. Taking the readily available guidebooks as an
example (Dave Noble's Wild insert and Rick Jamieson's Canyons Near Sydney), the
vast majority of canyons outside Kanangra can be done on 1 rope, although
sometimes a 50m or 60m rope is required. Kanangra canyons often require two 50-
60m ropes.

Weight and price together tend to be the other issue. If price is no object,
you can go and get yourself a whole bunch of different lengths so that you can
pick the right ones for the canyon - but most of us are probably not in this
situation! The longer the rope the more they cost (obviously!). Weight is a
similar problem. Carrying a wet 60m rope around for a day when the largest
abseil you do is 6m is definitely a pain. is obviously also an issue. The
longer the rope the more they weigh. Ideally you want the shortest rope that
will allow you to still get where you want.

So if you only have one rope, probably a 50-60m one gives you the most
flexibility - even at the cost of a bit of extra luggage. If you are getting a
second rope, I've gone for a shorter one (30m). I'm expecting that if I want
to go to Kanangra or some other area where I need 100m total or so, I can
coerce one of my friends who has a rope to come along too.

That's what friends are for!

cheers
tom

PS - David, in answer to your specific question I'd get a 60m and then lean on
some of your friends to get a 60m :)
Potential New Canyoner John Chisholm Apr 5, 2001
For those of you who have been following messages of Mat Black,
Or those of us who know him personaly and canyon with him
his signiture file can now be changed from no baby yet to......

David John Black
born 14:36 this very day (April 6.

A boy to join his 3 girls.
Bub and Mum doing well
Now other details yet, but if you wish to know more e-mail me (or him)
off list and you can be kept up to date.
Re: Rope length David L. Jones Apr 6, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> > Another question on rope...
> >
> > What are the best rope lengths?
> Ask 5 people that question and you'll probably get 5 different
answers. The
> main things to consider are price, weight and need.
>
> If you are doing mostly relatively well-known canyons, you will
know pretty
> much what ropes you will need. Taking the readily available
guidebooks as an
> example (Dave Noble's Wild insert and Rick Jamieson's Canyons Near
Sydney), the
> vast majority of canyons outside Kanangra can be done on 1 rope,
although
> sometimes a 50m or 60m rope is required. Kanangra canyons often
require two 50-
> 60m ropes.

Yep, not that I trust guide books!
Was hoping there were some experienced guys who might have had some
advice like "well I wish had got a 65m instead of a 60m because.."

> Weight and price together tend to be the other issue. If price is
no object,
> you can go and get yourself a whole bunch of different lengths so
that you can
> pick the right ones for the canyon - but most of us are probably
not in this
> situation! The longer the rope the more they cost (obviously!).
Weight is a
> similar problem. Carrying a wet 60m rope around for a day when the
largest
> abseil you do is 6m is definitely a pain. is obviously also an
issue. The
> longer the rope the more they weigh. Ideally you want the shortest
rope that
> will allow you to still get where you want.

Yep, I figured that with 20m, 30m and 40m capability (as well as my
16m 8mm rope which I always take) I would be pretty well covered.
Any bigger and I'll need to get another rope, or bludge one from
somewhere!

> PS - David, in answer to your specific question I'd get a 60m and
then lean on
> some of your friends to get a 60m :)

Yep, that's what I figure as well, but maybe I'll get 65m "just in
case"
I just had a hard enough time convincing my canyon partner to get a
harness and descender of their own. Couldn't convince them that
canyoning gear is worth starving for!
*rolling eyes*

Dave :)
Rescue at Kanangra? David L. Jones Apr 9, 2001
Does anyone know anything about the rescue at Kanangra on the weekend?
I think it was in Sunday's Tele, something about a guy trying to
climb some falls and done an ankle or something?

Dave :)
Rope prices at Alpsports David L. Jones Apr 10, 2001
Just got myself the Edelrid 9mm for $2.28, it's now their
normal "special" price.
They also have an 11mm static for $2.28 as well, 40% off, forget the
brand now (mental block!), but it's not one of the common ones.

Dave :)
Marking rope David L. Jones Apr 10, 2001
Another rope question...

What is the best way to mark a rope?
I've heard that permanant markers can attack the rope, so they are
unsuitable.
I'm using electrical tape at the moment, which seems to work really
well and has lasted many canyons with no sign of comming off.
I know that Bluewater make a special rope marking pen which is
available from Alpsport, but it's about $9 which is a bit expensive I
think.
Anyone know of any alternatives?

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: Marking rope rcwild@wildernessmail.net Apr 10, 2001
Permanenet markers will not hurt your rope if they are alcohol or water
based. The ones that will degrade nylon are phenol based. Here in the
states the most popular brand of permanent marker is Sharpie and they
are fine for marking ropes.

Rich
Re: Marking rope Adam Bramwell Apr 11, 2001
I've got a BlueWater pen and they are a bit fat for marking legibly.
The ink isn't that dark either. My experiences with electrical tape
is that water dissolves the glue, and shrink-wrap electrical heat wrap
worked to some extent also, we had a good fit and it lasted about 6
canyons.

We've taken to embroidering our rope with bright orange thread -
perfect for those quiet nights at home during the off-season!

One point on embroidering your rope - If you get to the other end,
you've gone too far ;-)

Adam



__________________________________________________________________
Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au
Re: Marking rope David L. Jones Apr 11, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Adam Bramwell <adski@a...> wrote:
> I've got a BlueWater pen and they are a bit fat for marking legibly.
> The ink isn't that dark either. My experiences with electrical tape
> is that water dissolves the glue, and shrink-wrap electrical heat
wrap
> worked to some extent also, we had a good fit and it lasted about 6
> canyons.
>
> We've taken to embroidering our rope with bright orange thread -
> perfect for those quiet nights at home during the off-season!
>
> One point on embroidering your rope - If you get to the other end,
> you've gone too far ;-)
>
> Adam

*forehead slap*
I forgot about heat shrink tubing!, and I'm an electronics guy too -
doh!
It's definately the best way to go. You can get multi colours, ones
with hot melt glue on the inner layer, thin wall, thick wall, you
name it. You should be able to abseil over a thin walled flexible
tubing no problems.

I used 3M electrical tape on one rope and it hasn't budged in half a
dozen canyons, but that is a top quality tape, most of them are crap.

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Marking rope Flynn Apr 11, 2001
> *forehead slap*
> I forgot about heat shrink tubing!, and I'm an electronics guy too -
> doh!
> It's definately the best way to go.


Heat shrink on a nylon rope??? Heat is nylons biggest enemy, it's the heat
that's generated in stretching the rope on a big fall that can snap a
climbing rope. Any time you subject your rope to high temps you will be
causing it damage and lessening it's UTS.

I'd also be concerned about the chemicals in the glue with both the heat
shrink and the 'Leco tape. We used to wrap bright coloured cotton around
the middle of the rope and this lasted about a season before it started to
slip and basically found it more trouble then its worth.

An easy way to find the middle is to use the alpine butterfly method to
coil the rope, starting with both ends and working towards the middle. When
it's time to uncoil grab both end and start feeding it out, sometimes it
helps to put one end through the anchor as you start, this will bring you
back to the middle.
Flynn

Don't forget to check out our webpage!
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Marking rope don Apr 11, 2001
I have used heat shrink in various cable/rope/wire appliacations and
would add this;
thick wall doesn't flex well and creates hard spots;
glued thinwall if shrunk too much does the same, also the glue can
migrate into the fibres inhibiting sheath/core movement which weakens
the rope under stress;
nonglued tends to migrate over time as well as get 'rolled up' in
certain instances;
don't forget all these require heat which is not reccomended for rope
longevity.
The instances in which I have seen failures occured at extremes
beyond those likely to be found in canyoning, however I would be wary
of using this or any other method involving unknown chemicals to mark
the centerpoint of a rope, which usually receives max stress during
use.

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "David L. Jones" <tronnort@y...> wrote:
> --- In OzCanyons@y..., Adam Bramwell <adski@a...> wrote:
> > I've got a BlueWater pen and they are a bit fat for marking
legibly.
> > The ink isn't that dark either. My experiences with electrical
tape
> > is that water dissolves the glue, and shrink-wrap electrical heat
> wrap
> > worked to some extent also, we had a good fit and it lasted about
6
> > canyons.
> >
> > We've taken to embroidering our rope with bright orange thread -
> > perfect for those quiet nights at home during the off-season!
> >
> > One point on embroidering your rope - If you get to the other end,
> > you've gone too far ;-)
> >
> > Adam
>
> *forehead slap*
> I forgot about heat shrink tubing!, and I'm an electronics guy too -

> doh!
> It's definately the best way to go. You can get multi colours, ones
> with hot melt glue on the inner layer, thin wall, thick wall, you
> name it. You should be able to abseil over a thin walled flexible
> tubing no problems.
>
> I used 3M electrical tape on one rope and it hasn't budged in half
a
> dozen canyons, but that is a top quality tape, most of them are
crap.
>
> Dave :)
Re: Marking rope David L. Jones Apr 11, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
>
> > *forehead slap*
> > I forgot about heat shrink tubing!, and I'm an electronics guy
too -
> > doh!
> > It's definately the best way to go.
>
>
> Heat shrink on a nylon rope??? Heat is nylons biggest enemy, it's
the heat
> that's generated in stretching the rope on a big fall that can snap
a
> climbing rope. Any time you subject your rope to high temps you
will be
> causing it damage and lessening it's UTS.
>
> I'd also be concerned about the chemicals in the glue with both the
heat
> shrink and the 'Leco tape. We used to wrap bright coloured cotton
around
> the middle of the rope and this lasted about a season before it
started to
> slip and basically found it more trouble then its worth.
>
> An easy way to find the middle is to use the alpine butterfly
method to
> coil the rope, starting with both ends and working towards the
middle. When
> it's time to uncoil grab both end and start feeding it out,
sometimes it
> helps to put one end through the anchor as you start, this will
bring you
> back to the middle.
> Flynn
>
> Don't forget to check out our webpage!
> <http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
> <cflynn@l...>
Re: Marking rope David L. Jones Apr 11, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn@l...> wrote:
>
> > *forehead slap*
> > I forgot about heat shrink tubing!, and I'm an electronics guy
too -
> > doh!
> > It's definately the best way to go.
>
>
> Heat shrink on a nylon rope??? Heat is nylons biggest enemy, it's
the heat
> that's generated in stretching the rope on a big fall that can snap
a
> climbing rope. Any time you subject your rope to high temps you
will be
> causing it damage and lessening it's UTS.
>
> I'd also be concerned about the chemicals in the glue with both the
heat
> shrink and the 'Leco tape. We used to wrap bright coloured cotton
around
> the middle of the rope and this lasted about a season before it
started to
> slip and basically found it more trouble then its worth.
>
> An easy way to find the middle is to use the alpine butterfly
method to
> coil the rope, starting with both ends and working towards the
middle. When
> it's time to uncoil grab both end and start feeding it out,
sometimes it
> helps to put one end through the anchor as you start, this will
bring you
> back to the middle.
> Flynn

I should have mentioned the use of very low temperature heatshrink
(60deg), anything else of course would be very harmful to the nylon
rope.
Flexible thin walled type would be suitable to abseil over I would
think.
You are right, the glue would be questionable until proven otherwise.

Dave :)
Newnes cflynn@lisp.com.au Apr 14, 2001
Managed to fit in a reverse trip of Newnes canyon on friday. Great
day, a bit easier then doing the full trip. The Starlight section was
dry again and the glow worms and bats were spectacular.

The camp grounds were starting to get busy and as we were heading
home it seemed like every man and his dog were head down The Wolgan
for the long weekend.
Juggler (Pilcher) canyon David L. Jones Apr 17, 2001
Has anyone done Juggler (Pilcher) canyon described in the 4th edition
guide?, and if so what did they think of it? It's near the Grand
Canyon.
I'd like to know if it really is completely "dry"

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: Juggler (Pilcher) canyon john.murray@eds.com Apr 17, 2001
Have not seen the 4th Edition yet so I do not know what they say
about Pilcher. Nice short canyon with 3 abseils, one finishing in a
pool of water. This is the only place where you will get "wet".
Combining Pilcher and Grand make a good days canyoning.
Re: Marking rope pocoloco@skynet.be Apr 19, 2001
Tape: never sure what the glue is going to do to your rope.
Heat shrink: heat is bad, both create "tough spots" which can jam in
your rapelling ring.
Marking the middle: a real (and possibly dangerous) pain in the %*?
if you have to cut/shorten the rope due to damage. Same goes for
bicolour ropes.

We use a special rope marker to mark one end of the rope with banded
stripes. Each painted band represents 10 meters, a stripe which
doesn't go around 5 meters. You can play with a similar system to
mark a rope up to a meters length if you want to.
If the rope gets damaged and you have to shorten it, just fill the
spaces between two bands and you're down a length. Marking it only on
one end saves you the trouble of doing it twice...
If you're real tidy you just cut off the marked end as well, you'll
only lose 20 cms or so.
I never mark the middle of my rope because this can create dangerous
situations when the rope length is changed.

Koen

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "David L. Jones" <tronnort@y...> wrote:
> Another rope question...
>
> What is the best way to mark a rope?
> I've heard that permanant markers can attack the rope, so they are
> unsuitable.
> I'm using electrical tape at the moment, which seems to work really
> well and has lasted many canyons with no sign of comming off.
> I know that Bluewater make a special rope marking pen which is
> available from Alpsport, but it's about $9 which is a bit expensive
I
> think.
> Anyone know of any alternatives?
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
Davies Canyon Simon Viles Apr 24, 2001
Hi all,
I returned on Saturday from my first trip to Davies Canyon.We only got down
to around 2-300 metres past the abseil(our fifth) off two bolts between 2
waterfalls, followed by a swim.One of our party(of three) was taken by the
current of one of the falls and held against the wall of the deep pool,
unable to move himself by kicking(in the almost dark)finally got out of the
water with the aid of the rope after 10-15 minutes.Thankfully only a short
distance to a reasonable campsite we were all soon warm and fine. We were
woken by rain friday morning so couldn't continue to walania creek
junction.We were all a bit dismayed at the comment in Canyons near Sydney
which says,"no swims, can be done in winter".
A question:Can this canyon be done with no swims other than avoiding the all
the abseils?perhaps a touch of aid climbing?
Cheers,
simon

ps- Baldy Bill and Baldy Harry arn't very bald at all it turns out:)
_________________________________________________________________________
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Pilcher Canyon & Track David L. Jones Apr 25, 2001
Does anyone know exactly where the Pilcher tracks joins the Grand
Canyon track?
I know it's shown on the topo as being directly under the power lines
slightly to the east and then crosses back under the lines and snakes
it's way out. But we did Pilcher Canyon yesterday and couldn't find
the damn thing, so we had to exit out up the Grand Canyon track.
Annoying. (It was getting dark though)
The power lines are almost directly over the big climb from the
bottom of the grand track to the top ridge. We looked at both, found
nothing down the bottom, but rock scambled up a face just at the top
that had an unsupported metal pole their to help. That didn't look
like the way either.
I've done the Grand a few times and have never seen this track. It's
marked on the topo so you would think it would be very prominate,
even signposted?
I guess if you walked to the Grand via Pilcher it would be obvious,
but doesn't seem to be so the other way.
Anyone got any idea?

Thanks
Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Pilcher Canyon & Track Lee Etherington Apr 25, 2001
Yes, it is very hard to spot. Almost directly opposite the end of the grand
canyon, where you might take off your wettie for example (a little bit
downstream), the path starts through the ferns. If you cant find it directly
from the main grand canyon walk track, walk over to the bottom of the cliff
and follow it along, you'll soon find it. It is a wonderful exit that takes
about 15 min to get to the top of the cliff line. From the main walking
track you cannot see that there would be a pass up through the cliffs which
makes it even harder to spot. I believe the other name for this canyon is
'Juggler'. Good for winter!
Regards,
lee

-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Jones [mailto:tronnort@...]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 9:35 AM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Pilcher Canyon & Track

Does anyone know exactly where the Pilcher tracks joins the Grand
Canyon track?
I know it's shown on the topo as being directly under the power lines
slightly to the east and then crosses back under the lines and snakes
it's way out. But we did Pilcher Canyon yesterday and couldn't find
the damn thing, so we had to exit out up the Grand Canyon track.
Annoying. (It was getting dark though)
The power lines are almost directly over the big climb from the
bottom of the grand track to the top ridge. We looked at both, found
nothing down the bottom, but rock scambled up a face just at the top
that had an unsupported metal pole their to help. That didn't look
like the way either.
I've done the Grand a few times and have never seen this track. It's
marked on the topo so you would think it would be very prominate,
even signposted?
I guess if you walked to the Grand via Pilcher it would be obvious,
but doesn't seem to be so the other way.
Anyone got any idea?

Thanks
Dave :)


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Jungaburra Canyon James Shadlow Apr 25, 2001

Morning everybody

Yesterday my dad and i did Jungaburra canyon. not a bad little canyon, but Ric Jamieson's book doesnt describe it particularly well. for starters there is a nice little cave near the start of the canyon, which we didnt enter as we had no torch. the pleasent walk through the canyon, is particularly at the start only pleasent if you happen to be a sherman tank or have a machete in both hands. the 5 meter climb down is not anything particularly easy, in fact it is very nasty. i wouldnt like to do this canyon in winter as the book says you can either, because getting wet up to my waist in winter doesnt seem like somethiing particularly fun to do in the middle of winter. the walk out was fun, we accidently went out the hard way because my dad slightly miss judged where we were exactly, but it was ok. the climbing sticks we kind of rotted, i made it up them ok, and then hauled the old man up coz he accidently broke all the sticks. small sign that he really is fat and 40 :).  anyway really a good canyon, but it is badly described. i would suggest to take a torch and a towel. if you  happen to take beginers down it take harnesses and abseil the climb down, to make life easier. anyway thats about it

cya later

James Shadlow



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Re: Pilcher Canyon & Track David L. Jones Apr 25, 2001
Thanks Lee, will have another look for it next time.
A signpost would be handy for this one seeing as that it's marked on
the topo map.
The 4th edition guide calls it Juggler. Definately one for winter, I
did it yesterday in shorts and a tank top and the water was lovely :)
The warmest canyon I've been to so far.
You only get dunked once in a pool at the bottom of the first
waterfall abseil.

Had a lot of trouble getting in though, we entered too high up and
had to do lots of extra bush bashing. The guide mentions a "burnt
tree with a hole in it" as the turnoff point down to the canyon. We
found three such trees!

I suspect by next season there will be a track going to it now that
it's in the guide.

The final >20m overhang abseil is really nice :)

Dave :)

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Lee Etherington" <localfocus@z...> wrote:
> Yes, it is very hard to spot. Almost directly opposite the end of
the grand
> canyon, where you might take off your wettie for example (a little
bit
> downstream), the path starts through the ferns. If you cant find it
directly
> from the main grand canyon walk track, walk over to the bottom of
the cliff
> and follow it along, you'll soon find it. It is a wonderful exit
that takes
> about 15 min to get to the top of the cliff line. From the main
walking
> track you cannot see that there would be a pass up through the
cliffs which
> makes it even harder to spot. I believe the other name for this
canyon is
> 'Juggler'. Good for winter!
> Regards,
> lee
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David L. Jones [mailto:tronnort@y...]
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 9:35 AM
> To: OzCanyons@y...
> Subject: [OzCanyons] Pilcher Canyon & Track
>
> Does anyone know exactly where the Pilcher tracks joins the Grand
> Canyon track?
> I know it's shown on the topo as being directly under the power
lines
> slightly to the east and then crosses back under the lines and
snakes
> it's way out. But we did Pilcher Canyon yesterday and couldn't find
> the damn thing, so we had to exit out up the Grand Canyon track.
> Annoying. (It was getting dark though)
> The power lines are almost directly over the big climb from the
> bottom of the grand track to the top ridge. We looked at both, found
> nothing down the bottom, but rock scambled up a face just at the top
> that had an unsupported metal pole their to help. That didn't look
> like the way either.
> I've done the Grand a few times and have never seen this track. It's
> marked on the topo so you would think it would be very prominate,
> even signposted?
> I guess if you walked to the Grand via Pilcher it would be obvious,
> but doesn't seem to be so the other way.
> Anyone got any idea?
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
>
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Re: Pilcher Canyon & Track john.murray@eds.com Apr 26, 2001
Where Lee mentions to enter the ferns, if you look at the rock face
twenty metres in you will see written on the rockface, 'to pilcher
point'. This is the way.
Davies Canyon Simon Viles Apr 26, 2001
Hi all,
Last week three of us went on a trip to Davies Canyon. We went what has to
be the worst possible way in, over baldy bill and baldy harry neither of
which are even slightly bald, and down to Thurat creek not to far from it's
junction with Sally Camp creek.I was planning not to get too wet as the
guide book says "no swims, can be done in winter",but still went prepared
anyway thankfully.
We got to the abseil section the next day, the first of which was directly
into a large deep pool which we had to swim across.The last abseil we did
which I think was our fifth was off two bolts and went down between two
waterfalls.I rigged it, went down first and swam straight across the
inevitable deep pool,followed by our trip leader who belayed our relatively
inexperienced member down who then jumped in to swim across. Instead he was
taken by the current of one of the falls and held against the wall of the
canyon in the deep water and by now it was about dark. He eventually got out
after a lot of kicking and with some help from the rope but he'd been in the
water a least ten minutes.Luckily we wern't far from a reasonable campsite
and we were all soon dry and warm and able to speak properly again.
We were woken by heavy rain the next morning which gave us a good excuse not
to continue on to the Walania junction.
Can this canyon be done as "Canyons Near Sydney" says, ie;without swims,
other than avoiding the entire canyon? Perhaps a touch of aid climbing?
You certainly won't see me there in winter!
cheers,
Simon Viles

cheers

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Re: [OzCanyons] Davies Canyon Flynn Apr 26, 2001
The none of the other editions of the guidebook have been known for their
100%
accuracy why would the new one be any different.

The errors stem partly from the ever changing nature of canyons and creeks
in the Blue Mts. Canyons flood, water holes fill up with sand and dredge
back out again. A favourite swimming hole of mine is renown for being 7
foot deep one month and ankle deep the next. Go prepared for anything.


At 09:07 PM 4/26/01 +1000, you wrote:
> Hi all,
> Last week three of us went on a trip to Davies Canyon. We went what has to
> be the worst possible way in, over baldy bill and baldy harry neither of
> which are even slightly bald, and down to Thurat creek not to far from it's
> junction with Sally Camp creek.I was planning not to get too wet as the
>"",but still went prepared
> anyway thankfully.
> We got to the abseil section the next day, the first of which was directly
> into a large deep pool which we had to swim across.The last abseil we did
> which I think was our fifth was off two bolts and went down between two
> waterfalls.I rigged it, went down first and swam straight across the
> inevitable deep pool,followed by our trip leader who belayed our relatively
> inexperienced member down who then jumped in to swim across. Instead he was
> taken by the current of one of the falls and held against the wall of the
> canyon in the deep water and by now it was about dark. He eventually got
out
> after a lot of kicking and with some help from the rope but he'd been in
the
> water a least ten minutes.Luckily we wern't far from a reasonable campsite
> and we were all soon dry and warm and able to speak properly again.
> We were woken by heavy rain the next morning which gave us a good excuse
not
> to continue on to the Walania junction.
>"" says, ie;without swims,
> other than avoiding the entire canyon? Perhaps a touch of aid climbing?
> You certainly won't see me there in winter!
> cheers,
> Simon Viles
>
> cheers
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
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Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
RE: [OzCanyons] Davies Canyon John Shadlow Apr 27, 2001
In fairness to the guide it does say how to avoid abseiling at the first
waterfall

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon Viles [mailto:vilesimon@...]
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2001 9:08 PM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Davies Canyon

Hi all,
Last week three of us went on a trip to Davies Canyon. We went what has to
be the worst possible way in, over baldy bill and baldy harry neither of
which are even slightly bald, and down to Thurat creek not to far from it's
junction with Sally Camp creek.I was planning not to get too wet as the
guide book says "no swims, can be done in winter",but still went prepared
anyway thankfully.
We got to the abseil section the next day, the first of which was directly
into a large deep pool which we had to swim across.The last abseil we did
which I think was our fifth was off two bolts and went down between two
waterfalls.I rigged it, went down first and swam straight across the
inevitable deep pool,followed by our trip leader who belayed our relatively
inexperienced member down who then jumped in to swim across. Instead he was
taken by the current of one of the falls and held against the wall of the
canyon in the deep water and by now it was about dark. He eventually got out
after a lot of kicking and with some help from the rope but he'd been in the
water a least ten minutes.Luckily we wern't far from a reasonable campsite
and we were all soon dry and warm and able to speak properly again.
We were woken by heavy rain the next morning which gave us a good excuse not
to continue on to the Walania junction.
Can this canyon be done as "Canyons Near Sydney" says, ie;without swims,
other than avoiding the entire canyon? Perhaps a touch of aid climbing?
You certainly won't see me there in winter!
cheers,
Simon Viles

cheers

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Duck-under in Rocky Creek? David L. Jones May 9, 2001
Hi,
I read on a commercial canyoning site that there is a "3m duck-under"
in Rocky Creek. Does anyone know exactly where this is?

Regards
Dave :)
Re: Duck-under in Rocky Creek? Adam Bramwell May 10, 2001
D3,

the duckunder is on the left a short way in, you pop down a short way,
and then through the wall and up into an enclosed rock pool which is
invisible to people swimming in the main creek. it's actually quite a
good trick to pretend you're being sucked underwater by a
MegaMutantCanyonYabbieMonster, and disappear.

there's similar potholes at the Raynon/Claustral junction where it's a
bit of a Houdini/contortionist act to pop underwater, spin around if
your limbs aren't too long and then pop up in another hole.

Anyone got any other 'unique characteristics' of canyons they'd like
to share?

Adam


>Hi,
>I read on a commercial canyoning site that there is a "3m duck-under"
>in Rocky Creek. Does anyone know exactly where this is?
>
>Regards
>Dave :)


__________________________________________________________________
Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Duck-under in Rocky Creek? David Stuckey May 10, 2001
A similar duckunder swirl hole is in the last stretch of Wollangambe
(standard) on the left. Easy to spot.

I didn't know about the one in Rocky Creek though, is that before or after
the short waterfall / downclimb about 100 metres from the start?

Regards

David Stuckey

-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Bramwell <adski@...>
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com <OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 10 May 2001 6:13
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Duck-under in Rocky Creek?


>D3,
>
>the duckunder is on the left a short way in, you pop down a short way,
>and then through the wall and up into an enclosed rock pool which is
>invisible to people swimming in the main creek. it's actually quite a
>good trick to pretend you're being sucked underwater by a
>MegaMutantCanyonYabbieMonster, and disappear.
>
>there's similar potholes at the Raynon/Claustral junction where it's a
>bit of a Houdini/contortionist act to pop underwater, spin around if
>your limbs aren't too long and then pop up in another hole.
>
>Anyone got any other 'unique characteristics' of canyons they'd like
>to share?
>
>Adam
>
>
>>Hi,
>>I read on a commercial canyoning site that there is a "3m duck-under"
>>in Rocky Creek. Does anyone know exactly where this is?
>>
>>Regards
>>Dave :)
>
>
>__________________________________________________________________
>Get your free Australian email account at http://www.start.com.au
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Duck-under in Rocky Creek? James Shadlow May 10, 2001
<P> hi all<BR>yer, the creek goes two ways after the
slid in over the water fall. its really interesting.
there is a cool little cave at the start of Jungaburra
for another interseting feature...
<P>James
<P>  <B><I>David Stuckey
<dstuckey@...></I></B> wrote: <BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"><TT>A similar
duckunder swirl hole is in the last stretch of
Wollangambe<BR>(standard) on the left.  Easy to
spot.<BR><BR>I didn't know about the one in Rocky
Creek though, is that before or after<BR>the short
waterfall / downclimb about 100 metres from the
start?<BR><BR>Regards<BR><BR>David
Stuckey<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From:
Adam Bramwell <adski@...><BR>To:
OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
<OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com><BR>Date: 10 May 2001
6:13<BR>Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Duck-under in Rocky
Creek?<BR><BR><BR>>D3,<BR>><BR>>the duckunder
is on the left a short way in, you pop down a short
way,<BR>>and then through the wall and up into an
enclosed rock pool which is<BR>>invisible to people
swimming in the main creek.  it's actually quite
a<BR>>good trick to pretend you're being sucked
underwater by a<BR>>MegaMutantCanyonYabbieMonster,
and disappear.<BR>><BR>>there's similar potholes
at the Raynon/Claustral junction where it's
a<BR>>bit of a Houdini/contortionist act to pop
underwater, spin around if<BR>>your limbs aren't
too long and then pop up in another
hole.<BR>><BR>>Anyone got any other 'unique
characteristics' of canyons they'd like<BR>>to
share?<BR>><BR>>Adam<BR>><BR>><BR>>>Hi,<BR>>>I
read on a commercial canyoning site that there is a
"3m duck-under"<BR>>>in Rocky Creek. Does anyone
know exactly where this
is?<BR>>><BR>>>Regards<BR>>>Dave
:)<BR>><BR>><BR>>__________________________________________________________________<BR>>Get
your free Australian email account at <A
href="http://www.start.com.au/">http://www.start.com.au</A><BR>><BR>><BR>>To
unsubscribe from this group, send an email
to:<BR>>OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com<BR>><BR>><BR>><BR>>Your
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Re: Duck-under in Rocky Creek? David L. Jones May 10, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Adam Bramwell <adski@a...> wrote:
> D3,
>
> the duckunder is on the left a short way in, you pop down a short
way,
> and then through the wall and up into an enclosed rock pool which is
> invisible to people swimming in the main creek. it's actually
quite a
> good trick to pretend you're being sucked underwater by a
> MegaMutantCanyonYabbieMonster, and disappear.
>
> there's similar potholes at the Raynon/Claustral junction where
it's a
> bit of a Houdini/contortionist act to pop underwater, spin around if
> your limbs aren't too long and then pop up in another hole.

Thanks Adam
Is this before or after the "whirlpool"?
Any glow worms in the cave?

> Anyone got any other 'unique characteristics' of canyons they'd like
> to share?

I know of a glow worm cave just after Twister (Sheepdip). Makes a
nice short detour from the Rocky Creek track, or you literally walk
over it comming out of Twister.

Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Duck-under in Rocky Creek? Lee Etherington May 10, 2001
There are some great duck unders in Whungee whengee, 3 if you look for them,
the third one has two tunnels, left and straight ahead and it can cause
nervousness if your expecting people to swim straight to you but they take
the left tunnel which takes twice as long... those few seconds can seem like
a long time.
Also there is a cool, 3 room weather board party house near the natural
bridge, opposite the entrance to river caves canyon (southern side), down in
the creek. Its almost built inside a mini canyon, something a bit different,
it used to be complete with a scenic(read air conditioned) flushing dunny
(although environmentally unfriendly) perched atop a rock shelf at the back
of the house. Theres also a little squeeze passage at the end of tigersnake.
Follow the spring up to the gloworms, fish around in there until you feel
the air coming through and squeeze on in! Just hope that you don't come face
to face with the locals (ie Tigersnakes) mid cave. You come out further back
up in the canyon.
The list has been quiet lately, everyone must be grumpy from the cold. And
it is COLD already. Just think of those European canyons where their water
never warms up.
Have Fun!
Lee
Always warm , mate! canyonz May 10, 2001
 Just think of those European canyons where their water
never warms up.
Now now now... It does warm up in Europe, it just take longer. Hey Lee, it's been a while. Have you ever visited the site of the EFC (French School of Canyoning)? They've got a section called 'canyons of the world', and I asked them to include NZ and Oz on their world map. Bastards had ignored us! Now they're asking for some info. Could you help there? To get an idea of what they're after, visit  www.efc.com

Nothing too detailed, just enough to let the frogs know they can come and splash down under as well.

What do you think?

Julien
 
 

RE: [OzCanyons] Always warm , mate! Lee Etherington May 10, 2001

G’day Julien,

Great to hear from you! I’m hangin’ to get over and check out your canyon(z)… Any news from the NZ canyons, we certainly have had an eventful year in oz. All I got at www.efc.com was some sort of star trek website! If you pass on the link I’ll check it out and send them an email with some information, can’t type in French so they may ignore it. Send me the link and ill check it out.

How many nz Canyoners are there? Is it mostly a spin off of mountaineering? Is your scene mostly recreational or commercial?

It’d be great to know a bit about your scene over there.

Regards,

lee.

Re: EFC Was: Somethin' bout bein' warm rcwild@wildernessmail.net May 11, 2001
Lee,

Try: http://www.efcanyon.com
Also: http://perso.wanadoo.fr/ecole.francaise.de.canyon/accueil.htm

Do you read French? You might have to ask Julien to translate.

I've been following your group. It has been a bit quiet. Hope
everyone is doing well. Looking forward to getting back there this
winter (your summer). Still haven't stopped talking about the great
canyons, and the great people I met.

Peter,

Received the book. Thanks mate.

Rich
Re: EFC Was: Somethin' bout bein' warm rcwild@wildernessmail.net May 11, 2001
I guess you can ignore that second link. They have it forwarding to
the first one. It used to take you straight to their techniques
section.

Think warm thoughts. It's 108 degrees F here in Arizona. I think
that's around 43C. And it ain't even summer yet.

Rich
Blue Mtns Rules don May 11, 2001
Did anyone see the article pge 3 in the SMH 11/5 regarding the new
regulations to protect the World Heritage Wilderness area.
This has obviously been coming down the road for some time but I am
surprised [am I?] how little information or discussion has been
published before this became law.

I don't want to stir up too broard a debate on some of the
regulations, as with all things some are reasonable and some not
depending on your point of view but two things stand out.

First the Environment ministers statement
"We need to have a degree of restriction on the impact of recreation
use in the park area"
Maybe, but who decides this and what form does it take?

It seems that the decision has already been made of the direction
this is going
"An assessment will be made of areas in the Blue Mtns where canyoning
or rock climbing PERMITS may be needed"

I am sure that commercial interests will be lobbying hard for their
benifit; it remains to be seen how the rest of us get our point of
view across and have our say!

I don't doubt that the recent unfortunate events in Bowens creek and
Claustral have had an impact on official thinking and it is up to us
to do all we can to represent ourselves as responsible members of the
recreational community.

This is not the fun part of canyoning but if we don't make some
effort now we might well find ourselves restricted to where, when and
how much fun we can have later.
This group is well placed to discuss any ideas, information or action
we can take so let's get something going.
Re: [OzCanyons] Blue Mtns Rules/ panther Flynn May 11, 2001
It's been part of the National Parks act for a while now that you're
supposed to obtain permission from Park rangers before entering a National
park to persue any activities that may be considered dangerous such as rock
climbing or canyoning.

This rule has never been enforced as all concerned agree it would be far
too difficult and a great waste of time. One thing that is likely to come
out of would be a ban on placing bolts in the area. A lot of NPs in Amercia
already ban placing bolds for climbing and canyoning and this wouldn't be
such a bad thing.

On a slightly different note did you all see the Blue Mountains Monster/
Lithgow Panther on Current Affair the other night? About 5yrs ago Mandy and
I was heading out towards Hole in the Wall when something big black and
feline-like jumped out onto the road in front of us, spun around and took
off into the scrub quicker then anything I've ever seen. At the time Mandy
said she thought it look like a panther and I'd say that it stood a gnats
hair less then 1m at the shoulder. About six months later one was spotted
out the back of Baal Bone Colliery near Cullen Bullen by a worker in the
coal wash plant.

Stories of th Tarana tiger have been getting about since my grandfathers days.
Anybady else spotted something strange running about the bush?


At 02:21 AM 5/12/01 -0000, you wrote:
> Did anyone see the article pge 3 in the SMH 11/5 regarding the new
> regulations to protect the World Heritage Wilderness area.
> This has obviously been coming down the road for some time but I am
> surprised [am I?] how little information or discussion has been
> published before this became law.
>
> I don't want to stir up too broard a debate on some of the
> regulations, as with all things some are reasonable and some not
> depending on your point of view but two things stand out.
>
> First the Environment ministers statement
>"We need to have a degree of restriction on the impact of recreation
>"
> Maybe, but who decides this and what form does it take?
>
> It seems that the decision has already been made of the direction
> this is going
>"An assessment will be made of areas in the Blue Mtns where canyoning
>"
>
> I am sure that commercial interests will be lobbying hard for their
> benifit; it remains to be seen how the rest of us get our point of
> view across and have our say!
>
> I don't doubt that the recent unfortunate events in Bowens creek and
> Claustral have had an impact on official thinking and it is up to us
> to do all we can to represent ourselves as responsible members of the
> recreational community.
>
> This is not the fun part of canyoning but if we don't make some
> effort now we might well find ourselves restricted to where, when and
> how much fun we can have later.
> This group is well placed to discuss any ideas, information or action
> we can take so let's get something going.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
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Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Blue Mtns Rules/ panther don May 11, 2001
I didn't know about the act re obtaining permision, guess it's one of
those bits in the small print; however it sounds like the proposals
under consideration will either enforce that or could create a whole
new set of regulations.
If it comes to pass I think that they would target the popular and
easily policed ones like Empress, Claustral, and possibly the
Wolangambie. If this was the case it might only have the effect of
pushing more people further afield. I have to agree though, it would
be difficult and costly to enforce, hopefully it wont come to that.
I believe bolt placing is to be banned in wilderness areas except
where replacement is approved by the regional manager.
There is a raging debate over bolts in canyons in the US although
climbers seem to have sorted themselves out.
It would certainly help if there was more awareness regarding safe
anchoring without the need for bolts or ring barking trees, there
sure is some ugly stuff going on in places.

Seen a few strange things running through the bush not the least of
which was my friend being chased by a bunch of pissed off wasps,
[don't come near me, run the other way you idiot] but never a
panther. Sorry I missed it. Don't suppose it's a long lost cousin to
the Tassie tiger or is that stretching it too far. I was lucky enough
to see a mountain lion while in US/Mex which is probably similar in
size, very impresive.


--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> It's been part of the National Parks act for a while now that you're
> supposed to obtain permission from Park rangers before entering a
National
> park to persue any activities that may be considered dangerous such
as rock
> climbing or canyoning.
>
> This rule has never been enforced as all concerned agree it would
be far
> too difficult and a great waste of time. One thing that is likely
to come
> out of would be a ban on placing bolts in the area. A lot of NPs in
Amercia
> already ban placing bolds for climbing and canyoning and this
wouldn't be
> such a bad thing.
>
> On a slightly different note did you all see the Blue Mountains
Monster/
> Lithgow Panther on Current Affair the other night? About 5yrs ago
Mandy and
> I was heading out towards Hole in the Wall when something big black
and
> feline-like jumped out onto the road in front of us, spun around
and took
> off into the scrub quicker then anything I've ever seen. At the
time Mandy
> said she thought it look like a panther and I'd say that it stood a
gnats
> hair less then 1m at the shoulder. About six months later one was
spotted
> out the back of Baal Bone Colliery near Cullen Bullen by a worker
in the
> coal wash plant.
>
> Stories of th Tarana tiger have been getting about since my
grandfathers days.
> Anybady else spotted something strange running about the bush?
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Blue Mtns Rules/ panther Flynn May 11, 2001
I did hear a theory once that the Tarana tiger may have been some sort of
marsupial similar to the Tassi tiger. What I saw and what was caught on
Video was definately cat like.

Some people have suggested it was little more then a pumped up ferral but
experts say ferral cats rarely grow as big as domestic cat due to their
harsher life style.

There have been a few more reports of sightings around Lithgow since the
story went to air no doubt the Town will be inundated by "Panther hunters"
in the coming weeks


At 06:26 AM 5/12/01 -0000, you wrote:
> I didn't know about the act re obtaining permision, guess it's one of
> those bits in the small print; however it sounds like the proposals
> under consideration will either enforce that or could create a whole
> new set of regulations.
> If it comes to pass I think that they would target the popular and
> easily policed ones like Empress, Claustral, and possibly the
> Wolangambie. If this was the case it might only have the effect of
> pushing more people further afield. I have to agree though, it would
> be difficult and costly to enforce, hopefully it wont come to that.
> I believe bolt placing is to be banned in wilderness areas except
> where replacement is approved by the regional manager.
> There is a raging debate over bolts in canyons in the US although
> climbers seem to have sorted themselves out.
> It would certainly help if there was more awareness regarding safe
> anchoring without the need for bolts or ring barking trees, there
> sure is some ugly stuff going on in places.
>
> Seen a few strange things running through the bush not the least of
> which was my friend being chased by a bunch of pissed off wasps,
> [don't come near me, run the other way you idiot] but never a
> panther. Sorry I missed it. Don't suppose it's a long lost cousin to
> the Tassie tiger or is that stretching it too far. I was lucky enough
> to see a mountain lion while in US/Mex which is probably similar in
> size, very impresive.
>
>
><> wrote:
>> It's been part of the National Parks act for a while now that you're
>> supposed to obtain permission from Park rangers before entering a
> National
>> park to persue any activities that may be considered dangerous such
> as rock
>> climbing or canyoning.
>>
>> This rule has never been enforced as all concerned agree it would
> be far
>> too difficult and a great waste of time. One thing that is likely
> to come
>> out of would be a ban on placing bolts in the area. A lot of NPs in
> Amercia
>> already ban placing bolds for climbing and canyoning and this
> wouldn't be
>> such a bad thing.
>>
>> On a slightly different note did you all see the Blue Mountains
> Monster/
>> Lithgow Panther on Current Affair the other night? About 5yrs ago
> Mandy and
>> I was heading out towards Hole in the Wall when something big black
> and
>> feline-like jumped out onto the road in front of us, spun around
> and took
>> off into the scrub quicker then anything I've ever seen. At the
> time Mandy
>> said she thought it look like a panther and I'd say that it stood a
> gnats
>> hair less then 1m at the shoulder. About six months later one was
> spotted
>> out the back of Baal Bone Colliery near Cullen Bullen by a worker
> in the
>> coal wash plant.
>>
>> Stories of th Tarana tiger have been getting about since my
> grandfathers days.
>> Anybady else spotted something strange running about the bush?
>>
>>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Panther stuff. Mathew Black May 12, 2001
Guys n Gals,
 
I do a bit of recreational feral hunting, and in my time I have come across quite a few feline's. Most are about the normal size. But there was a really big mother once, out near Coolah. The paw was about 6-7cm dia, about 60cm at the shoulder, and the big gnashing teeth 2.5cm long. This particular animal had a white leopard like coat. As you can read the experts obviously don't know much about what they are yabbering about (in relation to size).I don't think much of them mouthing off statistics which are obviously WRONG. 
 
Definition of a expert: a 'ex' is a has been and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure.
 
A study in SA by their Nat Parks mob in conjunction with about 30 professional shooters bagged about 2000 feral cats.
In this study they found that one cat kills about 1000 native animals each year. And that some would grow to much larger than your normal moggie. All of the cats were measured and the stomach contents examined. So the evidence showed that given the right conditions good food (not canned muck) and water, the ferals can, but not always grow into big mothers.
 
No, I'm not finished, My Panther story! I also shoot on a property near Bungonia Caves / Canyons. This property borders the Shoalhaven River and has been in the owners family for generations (since the area was settled - 1800's). The old lady (80 odd) refers to a cast of a great cat like paw print about 15-18cm wide, her father found the print on the property around 1945-1950. She remembers going and seeing the print and the casting of the print. Some more background, during WWII there were several US Army / Naval bases at Nowra (mouth of the Shoalhaven River). At least one of these units had panthers (yes multiple) as mascots (my dad informed me of this, he is a bit of a military historian among other things). The soldiers at the end of the war were not allowed to take the panthers back to the US, but were ordered to dispose of them, now if you were the handler and had to dispose of them what would you do??? Kill them or let them go into the nat park / state forest to the west huh???? Assuming that this is the case it would explain the paw print. But that was some 50 years ago.
 
There have been reports of a panther like animal up around Armidale / Tamworth / Guyra some 20-30 years ago. My mum comes from there. So for some weird reason I remember being told of it.
 
 
Happy Hunting er....Canyoning.
 
Mat. 
Best way to store a rope David L. Jones May 14, 2001
Now that canyoning season is over for me :(
I was just wondering what is the best way to store rope?
At the moment I have them doubled over and chained, and stored in a
garbage bag in the cupboard. Is this the best way?, or is it better
to have them loosely coiled?, or doesn't it matter one hoot?

Thanks
Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Best way to store a rope Flynn May 15, 2001
As long as they're out of the light and away from harsh chemicals they
should be fine

(just the fumes off a spare car battery or fuel can cause heaps of damage)


At 06:23 AM 5/15/01 -0000, you wrote:
> Now that canyoning season is over for me :(
> I was just wondering what is the best way to store rope?
> At the moment I have them doubled over and chained, and stored in a
> garbage bag in the cupboard. Is this the best way?, or is it better
> to have them loosely coiled?, or doesn't it matter one hoot?
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Best way to store a rope don May 15, 2001
Clean and dry before storing. Don't reccomend the rubbish bag as it
can cause mould; ropes are rarely 100% dry when packed away and sweat
inside the plastic, not a huge issue with synthetic ropes but not
good all the same. A cool dry spot out of direct light is best.
Loose coils with the twists worked out [lightly cinched in a fig 8
for convenience] ensures a quick kink free shake out. If hanging from
a nail or similar suggest using a strop to avoid creasing the rope or
getting rust stains on it.
RE: [OzCanyons] Blue Mtns Rules Lee Etherington May 15, 2001
World heritage...
Not too sure what might happen. With the wilderness declaration I think more
has happened, eg roads and motorized access being cut out of the wilderness.
I don't know much about it but I think world heritage is more of a
recognition of the value of the region and will free up funding for the
parks service, unfortunately this will probably go into creating more
barriers rather than into stabilizing access such as the claustral exit (oh
I forgot they closed that indefinitely which has put a bandaid over the
problem). It would be great if some of that funding could be used to run
Canyoning training sessions for the community to try to bring skills of
leaders up to a standard but the logistics of that are neigh impossible. It
would be great if the npws would provide some input or communication to the
list as to the direction that Canyoning may face with regards to world
heritage...
lee
RE: [OzCanyons]/ panther Lee Etherington May 15, 2001
Ah, the panther,
We've had panther sightings here at Grose Vale for the last 20 years and
another story makes the front page in the Hawkesbury about every 10months or
so. There are some eccentric locals that have invested many $ setting up
infra red cameras etc in a bid to film the mighty cat but to no avail. Most
people think it is from the Bullens Animal World/African Lion Safari/Some
other place collapse. All three places had a lot of big cats, all three went
broke, all three adjoin Blue Mountains national park, some of them are
recorded as loosing big cats, (remember a lion escaped and mauled the
neighbours dog) and who knows what they had 'off' license that may have
escaped (something exotic animal keepers are renowned for e.g. giant land
tortise in sydneys sewer system last year) I certainly have come across many
large paw prints out there but have put them down to dingoes or feral dogs.
I very often come across disembowled ringtail possums, particularly around
pierces pass (3 in the last couple of months) but have put this down to the
tiger quolls who also live in the area. So who knows, its always fun to
fantasize about some dark hairy monster stalking you in the bush, especially
when you have a group of not so experienced people with you and your late
out of a canyon... Ive no doubt that Wollemi has many surprises yet to
reveal, although I doubt that a native panther is one of them, an escapee is
possible.
lee
Re: Blue Mtns Rules don May 15, 2001
Lee, your points are well taken espescially regarding Claustral,
however the NPWS is never going to come to us to see what we want.
Life is a whole lot easier if we aren't out there; no damage, no
accidents, no liability, no worries, just a few nice scenic view
points and an interpretive walk would suit them fine.

There is no doubt that the collective standard of canyoning
[wilderness]ethics could use some help. Like all activities it only
takes a few slackers to ruin things for the majority of concientious
participents. I for one don't want to see permits or mandatory
requirements and so to some extent it will be up to us to try and
help them, in order to help ourselves.

Claustral is a classic case; it's a popular canyon that has been
closed for our own safety, but is it more dangerous than a lot of
others? it really comes down to the circumstance, your experience,
ability and judgement; I mean let's face it the challenge [not risk
please note] is part of the whole experience.
Will it open again when the keyhole is unblocked? Who will know,
after all we're not allowed to go down to find out; right!
Is unblocking the keyhole interfering with the natural course of
things?
Like you said it is just a bandaid situation and it would be nice to
hear what the longterm plan is.
The logic applied here could determine the policy for other areas
however this is rather unique in that it it is easier to police a ban
here than almost anywhere else.
If erosion and over use is the issue then we need to address that and
determine with the NPWS a policy that allows discussion and the best
interests to prevail.
My point is that the canyon is either open or closed, and if it is
closed then I think it is fair to know why, for how long, and what is
being done about it.
Let's not forget that this is National park not a private reserve.
Re: [OzCanyons]/ panther Isaacs May 15, 2001
> Ah, the panther,
> We've had panther sightings here at Grose Vale for the last 20 years and
> another story makes the front page in the Hawkesbury about every 10months
or
As far as I know they've been around for at least 40yrs.


snip

> tortise in sydneys sewer system last year) I certainly have come across
many
> large paw prints out there but have put them down to dingoes or feral
dogs.
Apparently the NPWS took plaster casts of some prints a couple of years ago,
& sent them off to the zoo for identification. The zoo said they were from a
puma.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Blue Mtns Rules David Noble May 16, 2001
You can download the plans from the npws website:


http://www.npws.nsw.gov.au/

From this I went to the press release at:

http://www.npws.nsw.gov.au/cgi-bin/mediarelease.pl?data=010510a.mr

which has links to the plans themselves (which are in pdf format). As I
write this they are downloading into my hard drive - so I cannot comment
on what they have to say about canyoning.

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Blue Mtns Rules Flynn May 16, 2001
I've got no problems with canyons being closed for rehabilitation periods.
In fact I think it's would be a good idea as long as some work goes into
the rehabilitation process and the area is reopened at a later date. I
think I've mentioned the idea of alternating closed areas before.
NPWS do not own the parks, they manage them for the people of Australia.
Simply banning entry to places is not management!

I also think that as the people responcible for causing the damage in the
first place we need to take a bit of the onus on our own shoulders.
Perhaps we should be looking into seting up an organisation along the lines
of the climber's cliffcare and work in with NPWS to help sure up access
tracks to the more popluar canyons to help prevent errosion and minimise
the impact of our hobby on the environment.

Increasing the standards of ethics and safety in canyoning is something we
need to address as a community and not something we sould lump on NPWS and
say fix it. Sure it would be great, even necessary to have the input and
support of NPWS but these are things we really need to take on our own back.

At 01:33 AM 5/16/01 -0000, you wrote:
> your points are well taken espescially regarding Claustral,
> however the NPWS is never going to come to us to see what we want.
> Life is a whole lot easier if we aren't out there; no damage, no
> accidents, no liability, no worries, just a few nice scenic view
> points and an interpretive walk would suit them fine.
>
> There is no doubt that the collective standard of canyoning
> [wilderness]ethics could use some help. Like all activities it only
> takes a few slackers to ruin things for the majority of concientious
> participents. I for one don't want to see permits or mandatory
> requirements and so to some extent it will be up to us to try and
> help them, in order to help ourselves.
>
> Claustral is a classic case; it's a popular canyon that has been
> closed for our own safety, but is it more dangerous than a lot of
> others? it really comes down to the circumstance, your experience,
> ability and judgement; I mean let's face it the challenge [not risk
> please note] is part of the whole experience.
> Will it open again when the keyhole is unblocked? Who will know,
> after all we're not allowed to go down to find out; right!
> Is unblocking the keyhole interfering with the natural course of
> things?
> Like you said it is just a bandaid situation and it would be nice to
> hear what the longterm plan is.
> The logic applied here could determine the policy for other areas
> however this is rather unique in that it it is easier to police a ban
> here than almost anywhere else.
> If erosion and over use is the issue then we need to address that and
> determine with the NPWS a policy that allows discussion and the best
> interests to prevail.
> My point is that the canyon is either open or closed, and if it is
> closed then I think it is fair to know why, for how long, and what is
> being done about it.
> Let's not forget that this is National park not a private reserve.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Blue Mountains Rules Karen Lawson May 16, 2001
Like Dave Noble I was going to refer people to the NPWS web site where
people can read the Plans of Management etc. Even though there is no
publicity in the media about such proposals there has been a lot of
discussion and debate over the last few years on these Proposals and Plans.
They have always been on display for public comment before being finalised.
Also environment groups such as The Colong Foundation and the NPA are
always in touch with what is happening.
I was disappointed to read comments referring to 'how much fun' someone
might miss out on, and it is 'unfortunate' if more 'barriers' are put in.
It is a National Park and not private land but why does the fact that it is
'public land' give us right of access? Why can't the wilderness be there
for it's own sake?
If anyone has been out on the Glowworm road in recent times they should
have noticed the exponential increase in rubbish and damage in the area. I
know soemone who filled a large container with rubbish from just one camp
site near the start of the Dumbano road ( not to mention the previously
dumped car which was deliberately 'moved into the middle of the road' by
some intelligent beings). We also recently spent some time cleaning up
rubbish adjacent to the Bungleboori picnic area, which is an absolute
disgrace. There is also a lot of rubbish and abondaned camp sites on
sunnyside ridge. I know that it is not canyoners doing this type of thing
(you will know who it is if you frequent the area),but it is an example of
what people do if they have easy access. These are people who are sitting
next to their car and they cannot carry their rubbish out! And I know this
area is not in the National Park but does that mean it can be 'used and
abused' as it has been. It would be wonderful if we could educate all
people not to do this type of thing but unfortunately that will not happen.
Little wonder environmental groups and NPWS want to restrict access. By the
way, there are many people who think that NPWS does not go far enough in
their restrictions.
We should be concentrating on what is best for the new World Hertiage area
and preserving it for future generations. I am sure we can manage to do
this as well as maintain plenty of access for canyoners who really want to
have a wilderness experience. For those who are just out for a 'thrill' and
do not care about the environment
Re: Bungleboori Picnic disgrace Flynn May 17, 2001
I know what you mean about the rubbish problem. For some reason things get
worse after the Easter break every year. Anyone interested in organising a
get together or two over the winter months to do a bit of a clean up job
around the Plateau. It might be a step in the right direction


> If anyone has been out on the Glowworm road in recent times they should
> have noticed the exponential increase in rubbish and damage in the area. I
> know soemone who filled a large container with rubbish from just one camp
> site near the start of the Dumbano road ( not to mention the previously
> dumped car which was deliberately 'moved into the middle of the road' by
> some intelligent beings). We also recently spent some time cleaning up
> rubbish adjacent to the Bungleboori picnic area, which is an absolute
> disgrace. There is also a lot of rubbish and abondaned camp sites on
> sunnyside ridge.
Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Bungleboori Picnic disgrace don May 17, 2001
Fair 'nuff, count me in.
Perhaps this is something we could co-ordinate with the parks
service, we fill the bags and they haul them away.


--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> I know what you mean about the rubbish problem. For some reason
things get
> worse after the Easter break every year. Anyone interested in
organising a
> get together or two over the winter months to do a bit of a clean
up job
> around the Plateau. It might be a step in the right direction
>
Re: Blue Mountains Rules don May 17, 2001
Thanks for the NPWS info, I obviously didn't go far enough to find
the management plan; interesting stuff.
I am sure we are all disgusted by the abuse our public spaces often
suffer but unfortunately it will probably continue; as was pointed
out education doesn't reach everyone and isn't always heeded; it
would be sad however if a total ban was the only answer.
Certainly there are those who feel that the National Parks are just a
resource but there are also many who treat them with respect and
would be upset to think that the irresponsible actions of a few
resulted in a loss for all.
Most of the areas mentioned so far are well known and used so a
program of maintenance and rehabilitation makes more sense than
banning or making access unreasonably difficult, that just transfers
the impact elsewhere.
There are some very knowledgeable and dedicated people both in the
parks service and elsewhere but all too often their efforts are
sidelined for political or beaureaucratic expediency; it doesn't hurt
to remind the those in charge that we are here and have an interest
too.
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Blue Mtns Rules Flynn May 19, 2001
Just had a bit of a browse at the plan of management for Blue Mt and
Wollemi NPs.

Thanks to David for supplying the links.

Karen any chance of keeping the group posted on when and where they can
view future draft plans. I realise that the Colong foundation and various
Bush walking club have input in the consultation process and we are well
represented but the more people who know about these things the better.


For those people who haven't had the chance to look over the plans as far
as I can see there is nothing in there that would adversely effect
canyoning. In fact it should help improve our awareness of sensitive issues
and help imcrease the sustainability ofour hobby.

Making reference to the 1995 regulation which states persons wishing to
undertake adventure activities requires to obtain consent of the NPWS the
Blue Mt plan states
"...It is neither desirable nor appropriate for specific consent to be
required for every instance of persons undertaking these activities within
the park. The regulation can be applied to exclude activities which are
inapporiate within the park or at particular locations."

It also state that canyoning is an approved activity within the park as
long as it is done inoccordance with:
_ The provissions of the plan...
_ Codes of conduct promoted by NPWS
_ Any restrictions, eclussions or closures which may be introduced from
time to time.

While this last may consern some people it's no different from what we've
had in the past. I'm sure you can all remember that after the 97 fires many
canyons were closed for rehabilitaion. They were reopened with out fuss the
very next season.


It goes on to set limits of 8 people/group in canyons involving abseiling
and 12 in canyons not involving asbeiling which is consistant with the
service's canyoning code.
Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Blue Mtns Rules Karen May 20, 2001
--
Hi Craig,

I would be pleased to keep the group informed of any relevant
matters pertaining to Management Plans etc. In relation to the
Newnes Plateau I am sending a letter to State Forests to try to jolt
them into thinking about managing their forest area better.


- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> Just had a bit of a browse at the plan of management for Blue Mt and
> Wollemi NPs.
>
> Thanks to David for supplying the links.
>
> Karen any chance of keeping the group posted on when and where they
can
> view future draft plans. I realise that the Colong foundation and
various
> Bush walking club have input in the consultation process and we are
well
> represented but the more people who know about these things the
better.
>
>
> For those people who haven't had the chance to look over the plans
as far
> as I can see there is nothing in there that would adversely effect
> canyoning. In fact it should help improve our awareness of
sensitive issues
> and help imcrease the sustainability ofour hobby.
>
> Making reference to the 1995 regulation which states persons
wishing to
> undertake adventure activities requires to obtain consent of the
NPWS the
> Blue Mt plan states
> "...It is neither desirable nor appropriate for specific consent to
be
> required for every instance of persons undertaking these activities
within
> the park. The regulation can be applied to exclude activities which
are
> inapporiate within the park or at particular locations."
>
> It also state that canyoning is an approved activity within the
park as
> long as it is done inoccordance with:
> _ The provissions of the plan...
> _ Codes of conduct promoted by NPWS
> _ Any restrictions, eclussions or closures which may be introduced
from
> time to time.
>
> While this last may consern some people it's no different from what
we've
> had in the past. I'm sure you can all remember that after the 97
fires many
> canyons were closed for rehabilitaion. They were reopened with out
fuss the
> very next season.
>
>
> It goes on to set limits of 8 people/group in canyons involving
abseiling
> and 12 in canyons not involving asbeiling which is consistant with
the
> service's canyoning code.
> Flynn
>
> Craig and Mandy's site
> <http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
> <cflynn@l...>
Descender safety Tom Brennan May 21, 2001
Looking back through past discussions, I didn't find anything on the pros and
cons, particularly relating to safety, of the various descenders available.
There was some brief discussion on what people like to use. Knowing that a
number of people on the list work in the outdoor industry, I was interested in
particular what professional adventure companies use, and why. I have put some
brief notes on a few descenders - maybe people can comment on these as well.
As background, I am a relative novice and have quite limited knowledge of
what's availalble.

Figure 8s -
Ads: Cheap, simple to use, light
Disads: Twists rope, low-to-average heat dissipation, need to unlock carabiner
to detach from rope, easily damaged by dropping, non-variable friction
Notes - various commercial modifications have improved heat dissipation and
twisting, although this generally increases price

Brake bars (eg pitons, pit-stops, etc)
Ads: Relatively cheap, simple to use, detach without unlocking carabiner, no
twisting, light
Disads: cross-load carabiner gates, some lack of control, non-variable friction
(during descent), average heat dissipation

Rap racks
Ads: Detach without unlocking carabiner, no twisting, variable friction
control, good heat dissipation, strong
Disads: expensive, heavy, dangerous if threaded incorrectly

Whaletails
Ads: No twisting, variable friction control, good heat dissipation, strong
Disads: expensive, heavy, single rope only
Note - similar double rope devices are available

cheers
tom
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Isaacs May 22, 2001
> Brake bars (eg pitons, pit-stops, etc)
> Ads: Relatively cheap, simple to use, detach without unlocking carabiner,
no
> twisting, light
> Disads: cross-load carabiner gates, some lack of control, non-variable
friction
> (during descent), average heat dissipation
You CAN vary the friction when using pitons: vary the number or size of the
pitons, or the size of the carrabiner. Very variable. You can't vary during
descent, but you can't on rapracks or whaletails either.

Also: pitons, pit-stops, rapracks are easy to lock off (not sure about
whaletails).

Have you ever heard of a problem with the cross-loading of the biner gates
by pitons? Ever?

Also - unsure as to what you mean by lack of control?

Some good points otherwise.

Cheers,
Mitchell

>
> Rap racks
> Ads: Detach without unlocking carabiner, no twisting, variable friction
> control, good heat dissipation, strong
> Disads: expensive, heavy, dangerous if threaded incorrectly
>
> Whaletails
> Ads: No twisting, variable friction control, good heat dissipation, strong
> Disads: expensive, heavy, single rope only
> Note - similar double rope devices are available
>
> cheers
> tom
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety John R. Shadlow May 22, 2001
Just to stick my oar in:

Yes, you can lock off on a whaletail. At first it is a bit hard, as you
get the knack, but after that, it's as easy as locking off on a rack.

How do you cross-load the gates? Surely you put the gates opposite to
the rope, and to each other to reduce friction?

Regards,
John R. Shadlow

----- Original Message -----
From: Isaacs <pisaacsm@...>
Date: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 5:42 pm
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety

> > Brake bars (eg pitons, pit-stops, etc)
> > Ads: Relatively cheap, simple to use, detach without unlocking
> carabiner,no
> > twisting, light
> > Disads: cross-load carabiner gates, some lack of control, non-
> variablefriction
> > (during descent), average heat dissipation
> You CAN vary the friction when using pitons: vary the number or
> size of the
> pitons, or the size of the carrabiner. Very variable. You can't
> vary during
> descent, but you can't on rapracks or whaletails either.
>
> Also: pitons, pit-stops, rapracks are easy to lock off (not sure about
> whaletails).
>
> Have you ever heard of a problem with the cross-loading of the
> biner gates
> by pitons? Ever?
>
> Also - unsure as to what you mean by lack of control?
>
> Some good points otherwise.
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell
>
> >
> > Rap racks
> > Ads: Detach without unlocking carabiner, no twisting, variable
> friction> control, good heat dissipation, strong
> > Disads: expensive, heavy, dangerous if threaded incorrectly
> >
> > Whaletails
> > Ads: No twisting, variable friction control, good heat
> dissipation, strong
> > Disads: expensive, heavy, single rope only
> > Note - similar double rope devices are available
> >
> > cheers
> > tom
> >
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
> >
> >
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Flynn May 22, 2001
G'day Tom

I think you'll find that most guide groups use Figure 8's because they're
cheap and relatively easy for the Bumblies to use.

Past corrispondence has stated that while Figure 8's do cause "Slightly"
more twisting and fraying then straight through devices they cause
"Slightly" less core damage and the over all difference is not worth
worrying about.

In reguards to safety all products have to pass safety standards before
they are allowed to be sold. So as long as they are properly looked after
you should be right.

Figure 8's are prone to hairline fractures if dropped. the heat generated
while descending can cause these fractures to stress and can lead to the
device failing so if in doubt replace.

As far as not being able to adjust the friction there are atleast 5
different ways to rig a Figure 8 to get various friction levels.

1. "The frenchie". With the figure 8 attacted to the 'binner by the small
hole pass the rope "Up" through the large hole and clip the bite into the
'binner.
This is good for light weights or long double rope abseils.

2. Sandard. Holding the 8 by the small hole pass the bite "Down" through
the lage hole and loop it over the small end, remember 'eggs go into the
frying pan", then clip the small hole into the 'binner.

3. Standard var. Same as 2 but then clip the tail end of the rope back
through the binner as well to add more friction. Good for people over about
90kg or smaller diameter ropes.

4. again holding the small end pass the bite "up" through the big hole,
over the small end, through the big hole again and over the small end. Clip
the small end into the 'binner. ie. The rope is passed though the 8 twice.

5. Similar to 4. Holdind the small end pass the bite "Down" through the
large hole, over the small end, down through the large hole, over the small
end, down throuth the large hole and over the small end. ie. the rope is
passed though the 8 three times. Clip the small end into the 'binner. Good
for make shift rescue situations where double person abseils are needed.

The only hassle with this is that each method needs to be set up at the top
of the abseil. i.e. You can't easily change the friction mid descent. It is
possible to adjust the friction on the Number2 by wrapping the rope around
the center of the 8. This can be done with some practise mid abseil but has
the increased risk of causing a "Lark's foot" and jamming the device.

You can also hook the 8 up backwards. ie. pass the bite down through the
small hole, over the large end and clip the large hole into the 'binner.
This is good for small ropes but again I've found this to "lark's foot" easy.

It's also been said that it's difficult to lock off an 8. The easiest way
to do this is to wrap the tail of the rope around you leg three time. It's
even more secure if you pass the rope around you back first.

Remember if you are going to use any of these methods you need to practise
them in a safe setting with a competent instructor and be familiar with
them before trusting you life to them.

At 01:58 AM 5/22/01 GMT, you wrote:
> Looking back through past discussions, I didn't find anything on the pros
>and
>
> Knowing that a
> number of people on the list work in the outdoor industry, I was
>interested in
> I have put some
>
> As background, I am a relative novice and have quite limited knowledge of
> what's availalble.
>
> Figure 8s -
> Ads: Cheap, simple to use, light
> Disads: Twists rope, low-to-average heat dissipation, need to unlock
>carabiner
> to detach from rope, easily damaged by dropping, non-variable friction
> Notes - various commercial modifications have improved heat dissipation and
> twisting, although this generally increases price
>
> Brake bars (eg pitons, pit-stops, etc)
> Ads: Relatively cheap, simple to use, detach without unlocking carabiner,
no
> twisting, light
> Disads: cross-load carabiner gates, some lack of control, non-variable
>friction
> (during descent), average heat dissipation
>
> Rap racks
> Ads: Detach without unlocking carabiner, no twisting, variable friction
> control, good heat dissipation, strong
> Disads: expensive, heavy, dangerous if threaded incorrectly
>
> Whaletails
> Ads: No twisting, variable friction control, good heat dissipation, strong
> Disads: expensive, heavy, single rope only
> Note - similar double rope devices are available
>
> cheers
> tom
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Say you love them
>with a DOMAIN NAME!www.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
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Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Tom Brennan May 22, 2001
> Past corrispondence has stated that while Figure 8's do cause "Slightly"
> more twisting and fraying then straight through devices they cause
> "Slightly" less core damage and the over all difference is not worth
> worrying about.

Certainly I've heard that before. Actually, the main safety question I have
with Figure 8s is potential difficulty of getting off a rope in cold water if
your hands are having trouble opening the crab gate. Probably not a major
concern in most commercial trips, but still...

Any thoughts?

cheers
tom
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Tom Brennan May 22, 2001
> You CAN vary the friction when using pitons: vary the number or size of the
> pitons, or the size of the carrabiner. Very variable. You can't vary during
> descent, but you can't on rapracks or whaletails either.

I had heard that you could vary the friction on rap racks under load

> Have you ever heard of a problem with the cross-loading of the biner gates
> by pitons? Ever?

As I understand it, crabs are rated in 3 directions - in the plane of the crab
down the long axis, in the plane in the short axis, and perpendicular to the
plane. Of these the first is the strongest and the last is the weakest. Using
a piton brake bar or similar puts a load across the gate (the weakest part of
the crab) in the weakest direction. Now I haven't heard of any
problems....which was the reason I started this thread.

> Also - unsure as to what you mean by lack of control?
I have read that pitons should be used only for wall walking, not for
overhangs. A friend had what could have been a nasty fall doing just that -
went over the overhang, and then flew down the rope very quickly. Again, I was
tossing up ideas and seeing what other people had to say

cheers
tom
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Isaacs" <pisaacsm@o...> wrote:
> > Brake bars (eg pitons, pit-stops, etc)
> > Ads: Relatively cheap, simple to use, detach without unlocking
carabiner,
> no
> > twisting, light
> > Disads: cross-load carabiner gates, some lack of control, non-
variable friction
> > (during descent), average heat dissipation

The Pitt-Stop is actually quite a big thick chunk of metal, and might
actually have a less thermal resistance than a hollow Rap-Rak.
Haven't done the calcs (could you even?), but it's a possibility.

> You CAN vary the friction when using pitons: vary the number or
size of the
> pitons, or the size of the carrabiner. Very variable. You can't
vary during
> descent, but you can't on rapracks or whaletails either.

You can actually vary the friction during decent with the Pitt-Stop,
just bring the rope back up over the top for extra friction, works
nicely.
Sometimes it's better to use a bigger crab to get less friction and
slow down by bringing the rope back over if you need to.

> Also: pitons, pit-stops, rapracks are easy to lock off (not sure
about whaletails).
>
> Have you ever heard of a problem with the cross-loading of the
biner gates
> by pitons? Ever?

I've never heard of it being a problem. The cross gate stresses
during abseiling will usually be an order of magnitude less than the
rated load. The Pitt-Stop also has the extra advantage of having one
half over the gate and the other half over the crab, this would give
extra strength I'm assuming.
The ultra paranoid can use a steel crab if needed.

I'm not sure, but I think the whole cross-loading thing comes from
climbing, where you get impact stresses which can be a major problem.
This doesn't happen during basic abseiling that I am aware of.

Dave :)
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> G'day Tom
>
> I think you'll find that most guide groups use Figure 8's because
they're cheap and relatively easy for the Bumblies to use.
> Past corrispondence has stated that while Figure 8's do
cause "Slightly"
> more twisting and fraying then straight through devices they cause
> "Slightly" less core damage and the over all difference is not worth
> worrying about.

I know a guy that is a guide for RockSports and they use Figure-8's,
even for Kanangra. I saw some photo's and I queried him as to why
they use them (I was surprised) and his response was something along
the lines of "you can use them for belaying and all sorts of stuff,
wouldn't use anything else". Further probing on the twisting issue
got a response of "it's not a problem". Guess when your ropes are
frequently replaced and tax deductable it's not a problem? :->

Dave :)
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> > Past corrispondence has stated that while Figure 8's do
cause "Slightly"
> > more twisting and fraying then straight through devices they cause
> > "Slightly" less core damage and the over all difference is not
worth
> > worrying about.
>
> Certainly I've heard that before. Actually, the main safety
question I have
> with Figure 8s is potential difficulty of getting off a rope in
cold water if
> your hands are having trouble opening the crab gate. Probably not
a major
> concern in most commercial trips, but still...
>
> Any thoughts?

I don't know why they would bother with 8's.
Too many downsides and not enough upsides as I see it.
Most other devices offer numerous advantages.
The small cost difference would not be an issue for a commercial
company I wouldn't think.
Getting off the rope would I think be a major issue with beginners,
they tend to want to get off the rope as quickly as possible. The
last thing you want is a beginner treding water in a pool trying to
unlock.

Dave :)
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan <tomb@m...> wrote:
> > You CAN vary the friction when using pitons: vary the number or
size of the
> > pitons, or the size of the carrabiner. Very variable. You can't
vary during
> > descent, but you can't on rapracks or whaletails either.
>
> I had heard that you could vary the friction on rap racks under load
>
> > Have you ever heard of a problem with the cross-loading of the
biner gates
> > by pitons? Ever?
>
> As I understand it, crabs are rated in 3 directions - in the plane
of the crab
> down the long axis, in the plane in the short axis, and
perpendicular to the
> plane. Of these the first is the strongest and the last is the
weakest. Using
> a piton brake bar or similar puts a load across the gate (the
weakest part of
> the crab) in the weakest direction. Now I haven't heard of any
> problems....which was the reason I started this thread.

There shouldn't be.
The biggest load that a crab/piton combination would take across the
gate would be the weight of the person 1KN=100kg plus some extra
when you "drop" over an overhang and brake etc. Maybe 2KN at the
outer limit perhaps?
A good alloy crab will be rated to 6-10KN across the gate, and a
steel would be more. Plenty of safety factor in there I think.
The Pitt-Stop is branded on the back with "1000kg on Alloy krab,
1400kg on steel crab". A bit of a simplistic claim given the
variables, but it sounds about right.

Interestingly, the Rap-Rak is rated at 1100kg breaking. Less than the
Pitt-Stop with steel crab :->

Bare in mind I'm an electronics engineer, not a mechanical *grin*

> > Also - unsure as to what you mean by lack of control?
> I have read that pitons should be used only for wall walking, not
for
> overhangs. A friend had what could have been a nasty fall doing
just that -
> went over the overhang, and then flew down the rope very quickly.
Again, I was
> tossing up ideas and seeing what other people had to say

That comes with experience, optimising the piton/crab sizes for
various ropes to get the friction you need.

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety canyonz May 22, 2001
> I don't know why they would bother with 8's.
> Too many downsides and not enough upsides as I see it.
> Most other devices offer numerous advantages.
> The small cost difference would not be an issue for a commercial
> company I wouldn't think.
> Getting off the rope would I think be a major issue with beginners,
> they tend to want to get off the rope as quickly as possible. The
> last thing you want is a beginner treding water in a pool trying to
> unlock.
>

What is your rope doing in the water in the first place?

Julien - addicted to 8s, and of course very biased
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Chris Cook May 22, 2001
Some racks do let you vary the friction by adjusting the number of bars used while under load (lots of other methods of adjusting friction too) The rack has to be of the 'open' frame design like the Petzl rack ($$$$$$$) rather than the 'closed' frame like the hollow bar RapRacks.
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety

> You CAN vary the friction when using pitons: vary the number or size of the
> pitons, or the size of the carrabiner. Very variable. You can't vary during
> descent, but you can't on rapracks or whaletails either.

I had heard that you could vary the friction on rap racks under load
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., canyonz <info@c...> wrote:
> > I don't know why they would bother with 8's.
> > Too many downsides and not enough upsides as I see it.
> > Most other devices offer numerous advantages.
> > The small cost difference would not be an issue for a commercial
> > company I wouldn't think.
> > Getting off the rope would I think be a major issue with
beginners,
> > they tend to want to get off the rope as quickly as possible. The
> > last thing you want is a beginner treding water in a pool trying
to
> > unlock.
> >
>
> What is your rope doing in the water in the first place?

In some (many?) canyons, there is no option but to land in a pool and
unlock while treading water.
Your rope usally gets wet in canyon :->

> Julien - addicted to 8s, and of course very biased

Dave :)
Addicted to Pitt-Stop's, and of course very biased!
re: Descender safety Adam Bramwell May 22, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Tom Brennan wrote:

> Certainly I've heard that before. Actually, the main safety
question I have
> with Figure 8s is potential difficulty of getting off a rope in
cold water if
> your hands are having trouble opening the crab gate. Probably not
a major
> concern in most commercial trips, but still...
>
> Any thoughts?


Only a couple of months ago a situation was posted to the group where
an abseiler on an 8 had their carabiner gate lock up. This is not
uncommon.
A quick thinking person who recognises the situation can escaped from
it by 'weighting the crab' to stretch it out and allow the loosening
of the gate.
However, in this case the lock in conjunction with a rope tangle saw
the person treading water for 15 minutes before being able to free
themself. Being able to "bang-out" the bars of pitons / pit stop /
racks at the end of the abseil makes them the devices of choice.

In wet abseiling situations encountered in canyoning, the possibility
of becoming stuck, either under a waterfall or in a plunge pool, have
tremendously dire consequences. So much so that I would not consider
using an 8 for canyon abseiling.

Same goes for using an autoblock whilst abseiling: Complication =
problems!

Adam




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Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety James Shadlow May 22, 2001
<BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid;
MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
<P>CROSS CRABS ALL THE WAY :)</P>
<P>that or using a variable controller. ive always
used figure 8s until just now when i got my variable
controller and its great. personally, the french
method for setting up a figure 8 worked well for me.
to disconnect i just had to undo the crab and slide
the rope out, easy....</P>
<P>James Shadlow<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Warren Keen May 22, 2001
> Also: pitons, pit-stops, rapracks are easy to lock off (not sure about
> whaletails).
>

Mitchell would you elaberate for me on your lock off method for pitons.

waz

ps see dave nobel's news page for details of fig 8 incident.
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Isaacs May 23, 2001
> Mitchell would you elaberate for me on your lock off method for pitons.

It would depend on the crab & pitons used - and the directions your pitons
face (I'm right handed & have my pitons pointing left - it's easier to lock
off that way) - it's not an exact technique my any means. You take the end
of the rope, wrap it around the end of the pitons, more than once if you
like, then over the top of the crab (in between rope & crab), then back
round the pitons. This locks off very simply, securely and easily. Not as
easy as a raprack, but still easy and effective. If you're worried about
security, you can tie a loose overhand knot in the trailing end of the rope.

Basically, wrap it around stuff until there's no movement, then wrap it
round a few more things for security.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety Flynn May 23, 2001
> I'm not sure, but I think the whole cross-loading thing comes from
> climbing, where you get impact stresses which can be a major problem.
> This doesn't happen during basic abseiling that I am aware of.
>
> Dave :)
I've had a gate blow out on me after getting crossloaded on a tricky
start. It stripped the thread out of the screw and he gate popped open.
Lucky I was using a prussik loop for self belay.




>
>
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Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety Flynn May 23, 2001
At 02:22 PM 5/22/01 -0000, you wrote:
> <> wrote:
>> G'day Tom
>>
>> I think you'll find that most guide groups use Figure 8's because
> they're cheap and relatively easy for the Bumblies to use.
>> Past corrispondence has stated that while Figure 8's do
>""
>> more twisting and fraying then straight through devices they cause
>>"" less core damage and the over all difference is not worth
>> worrying about.
>
> I know a guy that is a guide for RockSports and they use Figure-8's,
> even for Kanangra. I saw some photo's and I queried him as to why
> they use them (I was surprised) and his response was something along
>"you can use them for belaying and all sorts of stuff,
>". Further probing on the twisting issue
>"". Guess when your ropes are
>>
>
> Dave :)

As I said 8's cause slightly more twisting and fraying then other devices
such as rack. Where as the racks and other straight through devices cause
slightly more core damage, Greater elongation and greater reduction in
knottability and ultimate braking strain.

All abseiling devices cause damage to the rope. The difference between them
is minor.

As far as twisting goes just coiling the rope will produce twists. Its not
a major problem.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Say you love them
>with a DOMAIN NAME!www.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
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Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 23, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure, but I think the whole cross-loading thing comes
from
> > climbing, where you get impact stresses which can be a major
problem.
> > This doesn't happen during basic abseiling that I am aware of.
> >
> > Dave :)
> I've had a gate blow out on me after getting crossloaded on a
tricky
> start. It stripped the thread out of the screw and he gate popped
open.
> Lucky I was using a prussik loop for self belay.

That's interesting.
Although I can't quite picture what happened here. How on earth did
you get so much axial force on the screw that it stripped right off?
Or was it a radial cross load force that was so strong that it ripped
the gate out of the threaded screw? In that case I would have thought
that some part of the gate would have "snapped" before it "pulled out"
Were you using a piton or pitt stop?
Was it an alloy or steel crab?

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety David Noble May 23, 2001
On a recent trip - a friend used a pitt stop he had just bought a few
days before - and he used it for some of the abseils in the canyon (he
normally uses an ATC). The pitt stop seemed to work OK - but it seemed
to wear very badly - just on the one trip (a sandstone canyon involving
about 7 abseils - and he didn't use the pitt stop on all the first
abseils). He had to take the device back to the shop and get it replaced
I think.

Has anybody else had one wear out so quickly? (he was using it correctly)

Dave
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 23, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., David Noble <dnoble@o...> wrote:
> On a recent trip - a friend used a pitt stop he had just bought a
few
> days before - and he used it for some of the abseils in the canyon
(he
> normally uses an ATC). The pitt stop seemed to work OK - but it
seemed
> to wear very badly - just on the one trip (a sandstone canyon
involving
> about 7 abseils - and he didn't use the pitt stop on all the first
> abseils). He had to take the device back to the shop and get it
replaced
> I think.
>
> Has anybody else had one wear out so quickly? (he was using it
correctly)

Never heard that before.
I've used mine for about 10 drops so far and it still looks brand new.
I got mine from Eastwood camping and the guy there showed me the
display one they have that he said they had done >1000m total drop on
and had practically no wear the same as mine.
How fast was your friend going?
What was the actual wear?, actual grooves in it or just the anodising
wearing off?

For the mechanically minded out there, the PittStop is made of Hard
anodised aluminium to 70 Rockwell hardness. I believe this is about
as hard as you can get with aluminium, tougher than most alloy
carabiners.
Although all aluminium devices such as the pitt-stop and crabs will
melt given suffiently high temperatures.

Dave :)
Descender safety canyonz May 23, 2001
>
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
> Only a couple of months ago a situation was posted to the group where
> an abseiler on an 8 had their carabiner gate lock up. This is not
> uncommon.
> A quick thinking person who recognises the situation can escaped from
> it by 'weighting the crab' to stretch it out and allow the loosening
> of the gate.
> However, in this case the lock in conjunction with a rope tangle saw
> the person treading water for 15 minutes before being able to free
> themself. Being able to "bang-out" the bars of pitons / pit stop /
> racks at the end of the abseil makes them the devices of choice.
>
> In wet abseiling situations encountered in canyoning, the possibility
> of becoming stuck, either under a waterfall or in a plunge pool, have
> tremendously dire consequences. So much so that I would not consider
> using an 8 for canyon abseiling.
>
> Same goes for using an autoblock whilst abseiling: Complication =
> problems!
>
> Adam
>

We use the 8 in very wet canyons and very strong currents. By adjusting
your
rope to the level of the water you get off very easily, in fact
automatically
and you can get out of the danger zone quicker. I've seen folks using
more
complicated systems or back ups and getting seriously pounded before
they
could get off the rope. Some folks even died in such situations. There
has
been much more accidents in Europe with people drowning on jammed
abseils or
at the bottom of a pool while still on their rope, than by lack of back
up or
insufficient friction in their abseiling device. In the end, it's not
the abseiling device that's to blame, but the setup. I've had people
with locked karabiners at the end of the abseil, but that's no problem
since they get off the rope anyway. Then you just use pliers to fix the
problem if the screw is tight as hell...

How do you adjust your rope
like that, you ask? If you can see the bottom of the waterfall you can
do it
visually, or if you can't see the bottom you can lower someone on a
quick
release knot, and they get off the rope at the right point. Others
abseil down. By using the right means of communication, whistles, signs,
whatever, this can be very precise. We don't coil ropes but use
floatable rope bags with grommets, to
facilitate setups and contingency systems, and the rope never gets
twisted.

I think the discussion on abseiling devices can go on forever since some
are
ok for dry canyons, others for wet canyons, other more suited to natural
pro
techniques, others to bolted canyons, other to our vision of the hazards
in a
canyon, not to mention cost. Interesting discussion tough...

Comments anyone?

Julien
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Isaacs May 23, 2001
> We use the 8 in very wet canyons and very strong currents. By adjusting
> your
> rope to the level of the water you get off very easily, in fact
> automatically
> and you can get out of the danger zone quicker. I've seen folks using
And how do you do that? A knot up the top? That would be entirely useless
for many abseils in many canyons. You would get your rope stuck.

Also completely unecessary if everybody has a through decender - and will be
slower (due to time needed for setup). Having the length setup like that
also reduces flexibility for the abseilers - some like to skirt around a
pool a bit, others like to drop straight into the pool. These require
different lengths.

Cheers,
Mitchell





> more
> complicated systems or back ups and getting seriously pounded before
> they
> could get off the rope. Some folks even died in such situations. There
> has
> been much more accidents in Europe with people drowning on jammed
> abseils or
> at the bottom of a pool while still on their rope, than by lack of back
> up or
> insufficient friction in their abseiling device. In the end, it's not
> the abseiling device that's to blame, but the setup. I've had people
> with locked karabiners at the end of the abseil, but that's no problem
> since they get off the rope anyway. Then you just use pliers to fix the
> problem if the screw is tight as hell...
>
> How do you adjust your rope
> like that, you ask? If you can see the bottom of the waterfall you can
> do it
> visually, or if you can't see the bottom you can lower someone on a
> quick
> release knot, and they get off the rope at the right point. Others
> abseil down. By using the right means of communication, whistles, signs,
> whatever, this can be very precise. We don't coil ropes but use
> floatable rope bags with grommets, to
> facilitate setups and contingency systems, and the rope never gets
> twisted.
>
> I think the discussion on abseiling devices can go on forever since some
> are
> ok for dry canyons, others for wet canyons, other more suited to natural
> pro
> techniques, others to bolted canyons, other to our vision of the hazards
> in a
> canyon, not to mention cost. Interesting discussion tough...
>
> Comments anyone?
>
> Julien
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
FW: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Lee Etherington May 23, 2001
Yes, 8's & water can be a problem,
We rig each drop into water so that the end of the rope is just above the
water. As the rope is loaded, it reaches the water and the clients just slip
off the end into the water, then they just have to deal with the belay line,
90% of time there is another guide there to assist, dry bags in packs allow
people to roll on their back and work sea-otter style with their gear out of
the water. To slip through the 8 properly your id tags (I use heat shrinked
plastic) on the end of the rope has to be fairly short ~1-1.5cm otherwise it
creates a stiff point in the rope which will catch as it pulls through the
8.
lee
Descender safety canyonz May 23, 2001
Isaacs wrote:

> And how do you do that? A knot up the top? That would be entirely useless
> for many abseils in many canyons. You would get your rope stuck.

Just an Italian hitch locked off with a mule knot, and I can release it very
quickly if the need arise. Tell me how my rope would get stuck, since it has
never happened to me before in hundreds of trips and thousands of abseils. Am I
missing something?

> Also completely unecessary if everybody has a through decender - and will be
> slower (due to time needed for setup).

Time to set up is usually 30 seconds to a minute. Is that too long? What's
athrough descender? The piton/krab setup?

> Having the length setup like that
> also reduces flexibility for the abseilers - some like to skirt around a
> pool a bit, others like to drop straight into the pool. These require
> different lengths.

In that case, current does not seem to be an issue. It's good to have the luxury
of choice, if the water allows you. If people want to drop in a pool, then it
must be ok to do so. If people want to skirt around it, you can lengthen the
rope before or while they're abseiling. Done in seconds. If they want to skirt
around a pool, don't they risk a swing? Maybe you'd want to use guided abseils?

Julien
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 23, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., canyonz <info@c...> wrote:
> > And how do you do that? A knot up the top? That would be entirely
useless
> > for many abseils in many canyons. You would get your rope stuck.
>
> Just an Italian hitch locked off with a mule knot, and I can
release it very
> quickly if the need arise. Tell me how my rope would get stuck,
since it has
> never happened to me before in hundreds of trips and thousands of
abseils. Am I
> missing something?
>
> > Also completely unecessary if everybody has a through decender -
and will be
> > slower (due to time needed for setup).
>
> Time to set up is usually 30 seconds to a minute. Is that too long?
What's
> athrough descender? The piton/krab setup?
>
> > Having the length setup like that
> > also reduces flexibility for the abseilers - some like to skirt
around a
> > pool a bit, others like to drop straight into the pool. These
require
> > different lengths.
>
> In that case, current does not seem to be an issue. It's good to
have the luxury
> of choice, if the water allows you. If people want to drop in a
pool, then it
> must be ok to do so. If people want to skirt around it, you can
lengthen the
> rope before or while they're abseiling. Done in seconds. If they
want to skirt
> around a pool, don't they risk a swing? Maybe you'd want to use
guided abseils?

How do you lengthen a rope while you are abseiling?

I can maybe understand how you might be able to do it if someone was
up the top and able to release some rope that was tied up or
something, but what if you are the only/last person?
I've only ever done single rope through/around the sling/tree type
abseils, so forgive me if this is easy. I can imagine anything else
getting caught up on when you pull it down.

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Isaacs May 24, 2001
> > And how do you do that? A knot up the top? That would be entirely
useless
> > for many abseils in many canyons. You would get your rope stuck.
>
> Just an Italian hitch locked off with a mule knot, and I can release it
very
> quickly if the need arise. Tell me how my rope would get stuck, since it
has
> never happened to me before in hundreds of trips and thousands of abseils.
Am I
> missing something?
A narrow crack, or a very narrow abseil? Chockstones? Ropes without knots
can get stuck in these, and a rope with a knot would definitely not pull
down.


>
> > Also completely unecessary if everybody has a through decender - and
will be
> > slower (due to time needed for setup).
>
> Time to set up is usually 30 seconds to a minute. Is that too long? What's
> athrough descender? The piton/krab setup?
Through decender, eg pitons, raprack. Gate doesn't need opening.


>
> > Having the length setup like that
> > also reduces flexibility for the abseilers - some like to skirt around a
> > pool a bit, others like to drop straight into the pool. These require
> > different lengths.
>
> In that case, current does not seem to be an issue. It's good to have the
luxury
> of choice, if the water allows you. If people want to drop in a pool, then
it
> must be ok to do so. If people want to skirt around it, you can lengthen
the
> rope before or while they're abseiling. Done in seconds. If they want to
skirt
> around a pool, don't they risk a swing? Maybe you'd want to use guided
abseils?
Some people try to stay dry, or don't mind the risk of a swing. Often, a
swing would land you in the pool anyway. Others like landing in a pool, and
have no problems with a strong current. Sometimes I love abseiling into a
pool - current or still, other times I would prefer to stay dry.

Obviously you prefer to shorten your rope. I would rather keep things
simple. That's fine - we just have different ways we like to do things, and
it seems each of our respective methods work for us.

Cheers,
Mitchell
Descender safety canyonz May 24, 2001
Isaacs wrote:

> > > And how do you do that? A knot up the top? That would be entirely
> useless
> > > for many abseils in many canyons. You would get your rope stuck.
> >
> > Just an Italian hitch locked off with a mule knot, and I can release it
> very
> > quickly if the need arise. Tell me how my rope would get stuck, since it
> has
> > never happened to me before in hundreds of trips and thousands of abseils.
> Am I
> > missing something?
> A narrow crack, or a very narrow abseil? Chockstones? Ropes without knots
> can get stuck in these, and a rope with a knot would definitely not pull
> down.
>

Never said I have a knot on my rope when I release it, quite the contrary. I
guess there's an issue of where your belays are situated. Narrow cracks,
chockstones: natural pro doesn't always allow you to skip these risks. But don't
get me wrong, I'm not a crazy bolter either. I like both.

>
> >
> > > Also completely unecessary if everybody has a through decender - and
> will be
> > > slower (due to time needed for setup).
> >
> > Time to set up is usually 30 seconds to a minute. Is that too long? What's
> > athrough descender? The piton/krab setup?
> Through decender, eg pitons, raprack. Gate doesn't need opening.
>
> >
> > > Having the length setup like that
> > > also reduces flexibility for the abseilers - some like to skirt around a
> > > pool a bit, others like to drop straight into the pool. These require
> > > different lengths.
> >
> > In that case, current does not seem to be an issue. It's good to have the
> luxury
> > of choice, if the water allows you. If people want to drop in a pool, then
> it
> > must be ok to do so. If people want to skirt around it, you can lengthen
> the
> > rope before or while they're abseiling. Done in seconds. If they want to
> skirt
> > around a pool, don't they risk a swing? Maybe you'd want to use guided
> abseils?
> Some people try to stay dry, or don't mind the risk of a swing. Often, a
> swing would land you in the pool anyway. Others like landing in a pool, and
> have no problems with a strong current. Sometimes I love abseiling into a
> pool - current or still, other times I would prefer to stay dry.
>
> Obviously you prefer to shorten your rope. I would rather keep things
> simple.

Not having to disconnect in the water is fairly simple, isn't it? I only shorten
my rope big time (up to 3 metres in some places!) when people are ok with it.
Otherwise I shorten it to 1/2 m above water, and abseilers are off the rope when
the water reaches their waist.

> That's fine - we just have different ways we like to do things, and
> it seems each of our respective methods work for us.

That's the good thing about egroups like this, seeing different techniques and
people. Where do you go canyoning, Mitchell?


Julien
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety Isaacs May 24, 2001
> That's the good thing about egroups like this, seeing different techniques
and
> people. Where do you go canyoning, Mitchell?
Blue Mountains. Yourself?

Cheers,
Mitchell
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety Flynn May 24, 2001
> That's interesting.
> Although I can't quite picture what happened here. How on earth did
> you get so much axial force on the screw that it stripped right off?
> Or was it a radial cross load force that was so strong that it ripped
> the gate out of the threaded screw? In that case I would have thought
>""""
> Were you using a piton or pitt stop?
> Was it an alloy or steel crab?

It was with a Figure 8 on an alloy crab. The crab twisted around a bit so
that the 8 was loaded across the gate and it just went pop! Just goes to
show that the forces induced while abseiling are not as straight foward as
those induced by a static load hanging in a straight line of pull.
Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Descender safety canyonz May 24, 2001
Isaacs wrote:

>
> Blue Mountains. Yourself?
>
> Cheers,
> Mitchell
>

New Zealand (where I live) and Europe when I can afford to go there. And
anywhere else when I win Lotto.

Julien
Descender safety canyonz May 24, 2001
Hi David

> How do you lengthen a rope while you are abseiling?

I don't lengthen it while I'm abseiling myself, but I stay at the top
belay
and release the rope if needed by unlocking the Italian hitch.

> I can maybe understand how you might be able to do it if someone was
> up the top and able to release some rope that was tied up or
> something, but what if you are the only/last person?

If I'm the only person I can't do that, but I don't do canyons alone
anyway!
If I'm last it's the same story, can't do it while I'm abseiling. But
somebody else at the bottom could do it by releasing the rope from
there. I
would be abseiling on one strand of the rope and they control the other
strand. We use this technique quite often in guided abseils. A bit hard
to
explain on the Net though. another thing that helps adjusting your rope
length is rope marking and knowing how long the abseils are.
>
> I've only ever done single rope through/around the sling/tree type
> abseils, so forgive me if this is easy. I can imagine anything else
> getting caught up on when you pull it down.

Not sure what you mean there Dave, but I'm a bit tired tonight. Can you
rephrase it so that it's understandable for your middle-of-the-road
Frenchman?

Julien
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 24, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> > That's interesting.
> > Although I can't quite picture what happened here. How on earth
did
> > you get so much axial force on the screw that it stripped right
off?
> > Or was it a radial cross load force that was so strong that it
ripped
> > the gate out of the threaded screw? In that case I would have
thought
> >""""
> > Were you using a piton or pitt stop?
> > Was it an alloy or steel crab?
>
> It was with a Figure 8 on an alloy crab. The crab twisted around a
bit so
> that the 8 was loaded across the gate and it just went pop! Just
goes to
> show that the forces induced while abseiling are not as straight
foward as
> those induced by a static load hanging in a straight line of pull.
> Flynn

Very true.
That would probably be the same for all descenders that hang off a
crab on a harness, be it an 8, pittstop, rack or whatever. But I can
only see this happening when the descender is pressed against
something (the overhang?) and you twist your your body which would
then put twisting force on the crab and descender, and the crab would
probably be the first to go.
Am I reading this correctly or is there other ways it can happen?

Dave :)
Descenders: A Personal Manifesto John Chisholm May 24, 2001
I've read with considerable interest all of the discussion on
descenders and associated paraphernalia.
I thought it was worth adding a different perspective, so I shall
throw my hat into the ring and try to help out all those who had
questions.
My descender of choice is the rack. I use a Petzl, and I think that it
gives me a great range of options. I can tie off, change friction
under load, use double or single rope from 9mm to 11mm, changing from
decent to ascent is simple and I can even abseil a loaded rope.
But I wouldn't recommend it as a personal descender for every
canyoner.
I use it as I take out kids and beginners and I like to be 'over
engineered' for any potential rescue.
That said, the whale tail or a bobbin device can do most of the same
things, so the difference there is personal choice.

Those I take out are given 8s (if they don't own their own gear). The
reason? It is cost more than any other factor. Also for beginners it
is the device they are probably going to have used when abseiling. The
8 (as mentioned in earlier posts) can be used in a variety of ways but
for beginners that is adding more complexity than they need (KISS).

A lot of the other leaders and friends whom I canyon with choose to
use climbing belay devices such as the DMM bug or the variable
controller. To my mind these have little benefit over an 8 as there is
the same problem of undoing a krab (with cold hands) to release the
rope.

When I don't want to drag the rack along with me I have a mini
whaletail (from rock and rope engineering). This is a lot smaller than
the rack, less annoying while walking and is still good to tie off
with and change from decent to ascent. It doesn't manage double 11mm
and is too fast on single 9mm and you can't descend a loaded rope for
a rescue.

The other device I favor is the piton brake bar, for someone who wants
to canyon on a budget this is my recommendation. I started canyoning
in a tape harness with a piton on a steel oval and if I wasn't being
over cautious because I take out other peoples kids I'd probably still
use that set up.

As for the different ways of setting up the abseil with mule knots etc
to let you abseil off the end of the rope, I like to have the rope
ending just at the water, but I'd rather keep the set up simple.
If I think an abseil has a difficult pool at the base, I tend to tie
the rope up top to have it end on the water. This way beginners on 8s
can slide off the end, then when the last abseiler descends they go
for a simple double rope and use a rack, whaletail or piton to make
detaching easier.
An additional benefit of the rope ending at the water is that rope
twist from 8s isn't an issue.

John Chisholm

As a footnote:
Why listen to me? I co-ordinate the rock sport training program for
leaders in a group called Royal Rangers (Church-based Scout-like).
I've been Canyoning for 12 years, Caving for 14, abseiling for 19,
camping and hiking since before I was born, throw in the occasional
rock climbing trip and that's my experience.
I know there are people on this list who beat my experience hands
down, but while I've been training leaders and updating skills of
existing participants for Rangers I've had opportunity to compare and
contrast a whole heap of stuff, to try all manner of fancy gadgets
and fancy setups.

(I warned you it was a manifesto)
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 24, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., canyonz <info@c...> wrote:
> Hi David
>
> > How do you lengthen a rope while you are abseiling?
>
> I don't lengthen it while I'm abseiling myself, but I stay at the
top
> belay
> and release the rope if needed by unlocking the Italian hitch.
>
> > I can maybe understand how you might be able to do it if someone
was
> > up the top and able to release some rope that was tied up or
> > something, but what if you are the only/last person?
>
> If I'm the only person I can't do that, but I don't do canyons alone
> anyway!
> If I'm last it's the same story, can't do it while I'm abseiling.
But
> somebody else at the bottom could do it by releasing the rope from
> there. I
> would be abseiling on one strand of the rope and they control the
other
> strand. We use this technique quite often in guided abseils. A bit
hard
> to
> explain on the Net though. another thing that helps adjusting your
rope
> length is rope marking and knowing how long the abseils are.

Ah, using a single rope abseil with the other side used to control
the length. Now I understand, thanks.

> > I've only ever done single rope through/around the sling/tree type
> > abseils, so forgive me if this is easy. I can imagine anything
else
> > getting caught up on when you pull it down.
>
> Not sure what you mean there Dave, but I'm a bit tired tonight. Can
you
> rephrase it so that it's understandable for your middle-of-the-road
> Frenchman?

Ok, that was phrased wrong, sorry.
I use the standard "double rope" technique. I.E, both ropes go
straight through the descender, middle of the rope is either around a
tree or through a sling around a tree etc. No one is belaying or
controlling the ropes, I just "free fall" (slowly) on the descender.
I believe this is what most canyoners do. I can imagine beginners on
commercial trips would be spoon feed instead of having to control the
descent themselves.

Dave :)
Re: Descender safety canyonz May 24, 2001
> Ok, that was phrased wrong, sorry.
> I use the standard "double rope" technique. I.E, both ropes go
> straight through the descender, middle of the rope is either around a
> tree or through a sling around a tree etc. No one is belaying or
> controlling the ropes, I just "free fall" (slowly) on the descender.
> I believe this is what most canyoners do. I can imagine beginners on
> commercial trips would be spoon feed instead of having to control the
> descent themselves.
>

Not on my trips, mate! I make them work and they like it, rather than being
treated like a sack of potatoes. Only when they ask for it do I lower them...

adjusting the rope so that both ends are on the side of the belay/tree/sling
means that if you have a 10 m abseil and a 60 metre rope you have a hell of a
lot of rope waiting to drown and strangle you in the pool. Happened to me
when I started canyoning...freaky...

Julien
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety Flynn May 24, 2001
> Very true.
> That would probably be the same for all descenders that hang off a
> crab on a harness, be it an 8, pittstop, rack or whatever. But I can
> only see this happening when the descender is pressed against
> something (the overhang?) and you twist your your body which would
> then put twisting force on the crab and descender, and the crab would
> probably be the first to go.
> Am I reading this correctly or is there other ways it can happen?
>
> Dave :)
>
Not exactly sure what happened. I think the crab twisted in the belay loop
so the gate was facing up with the small curve pointing out and the large
curve against my gut. The 8 must have slid along possibly catching up
somehow and striping the screw, then it just went.

> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety James Shadlow May 25, 2001

if that had happened, i would be asking what the history of the carabiner was. carabiners tend to not do that in most cases unless they have taken a bad fall in rock climbing or something else similar

James Shadlow

PS. i was at the TAFE outdoor recreation new training module launch last night, and the meeting went well. it was all very well presented, and its a well put together plan.....



Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions $2 Million Sweepstakes - Got something to sell?

Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety John R. Shadlow May 25, 2001
Me again,

I've had something ike that happen to me on occaisions. The 8 was
loaded incorrectly on the Crab, twisted round or something like that.
Then, when a bit of the way down, it'd twist back, dropping me a little
way. All in all, not a nice experience to have. That's why I prefer in-
line devices ie whale-tail or rack!

John R. Shadlow

----- Original Message -----
From: Flynn <cflynn101@...>
Date: Thursday, May 24, 2001 9:00 pm
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Descender safety

> > That's interesting.
> > Although I can't quite picture what happened here. How on earth
> did
> > you get so much axial force on the screw that it stripped right off?
> > Or was it a radial cross load force that was so strong that it
> ripped
> > the gate out of the threaded screw? In that case I would have
> thought
> >""""
> > Were you using a piton or pitt stop?
> > Was it an alloy or steel crab?
>
> It was with a Figure 8 on an alloy crab. The crab twisted around a
> bit so
> that the 8 was loaded across the gate and it just went pop! Just
> goes to
> show that the forces induced while abseiling are not as straight
> foward as
> those induced by a static load hanging in a straight line of pull.
> Flynn
>
> Craig and Mandy's site
> <" target="l">http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
> <cflynn@...>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
RE: [OzCanyons] Descenders: A Personal Manifesto John Shadlow May 25, 2001
Hi all

I belong to the same group as John Chis and while agreeing with just about
everything he has to say ..(that saves me retyping it!) however, I have a
slightly different perspective.

My device of choice is a Variable controller because:

1. When you want to stop fast it will stop quicker than any other
device...Ok I know you should not race but its fun!
2. Once stoped its easy to either stay stopped or quickly tie off, This is
extremely important for me in teaching others to abseil and rescuing first
timers. It will also easily take the weight of a second body without having
to adjust anything yet still have the same stopping power.
3. It works on 11mm or 9mm single or double.
4. Due to the force of gravity (and I am only 85Kg!! God help others with
greater gravity assistance) I cannot come to a complete stop without tying
off with an "8", a Petzl Stop wont "stop" with me it still slips.
5. As for detaching .. I don't , I abseil into water swim away and the rope
just passes thru the device. Then again I would have the rope as close to
the water as possible.

John


-----Original Message-----
From: John Chisholm [mailto:jchish03@...]
Sent: Friday, May 25, 2001 11:52 AM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Descenders: A Personal Manifesto

I've read with considerable interest all of the discussion on
descenders and associated paraphernalia.
I thought it was worth adding a different perspective, so I shall
throw my hat into the ring and try to help out all those who had
questions.
My descender of choice is the rack. I use a Petzl, and I think that it
gives me a great range of options. I can tie off, change friction
under load, use double or single rope from 9mm to 11mm, changing from
decent to ascent is simple and I can even abseil a loaded rope.
But I wouldn't recommend it as a personal descender for every
canyoner.
I use it as I take out kids and beginners and I like to be 'over
engineered' for any potential rescue.
That said, the whale tail or a bobbin device can do most of the same
things, so the difference there is personal choice.

Those I take out are given 8s (if they don't own their own gear). The
reason? It is cost more than any other factor. Also for beginners it
is the device they are probably going to have used when abseiling. The
8 (as mentioned in earlier posts) can be used in a variety of ways but
for beginners that is adding more complexity than they need (KISS).

A lot of the other leaders and friends whom I canyon with choose to
use climbing belay devices such as the DMM bug or the variable
controller. To my mind these have little benefit over an 8 as there is
the same problem of undoing a krab (with cold hands) to release the
rope.

When I don't want to drag the rack along with me I have a mini
whaletail (from rock and rope engineering). This is a lot smaller than
the rack, less annoying while walking and is still good to tie off
with and change from decent to ascent. It doesn't manage double 11mm
and is too fast on single 9mm and you can't descend a loaded rope for
a rescue.

The other device I favor is the piton brake bar, for someone who wants
to canyon on a budget this is my recommendation. I started canyoning
in a tape harness with a piton on a steel oval and if I wasn't being
over cautious because I take out other peoples kids I'd probably still
use that set up.

As for the different ways of setting up the abseil with mule knots etc
to let you abseil off the end of the rope, I like to have the rope
ending just at the water, but I'd rather keep the set up simple.
If I think an abseil has a difficult pool at the base, I tend to tie
the rope up top to have it end on the water. This way beginners on 8s
can slide off the end, then when the last abseiler descends they go
for a simple double rope and use a rack, whaletail or piton to make
detaching easier.
An additional benefit of the rope ending at the water is that rope
twist from 8s isn't an issue.

John Chisholm

As a footnote:
Why listen to me? I co-ordinate the rock sport training program for
leaders in a group called Royal Rangers (Church-based Scout-like).
I've been Canyoning for 12 years, Caving for 14, abseiling for 19,
camping and hiking since before I was born, throw in the occasional
rock climbing trip and that's my experience.
I know there are people on this list who beat my experience hands
down, but while I've been training leaders and updating skills of
existing participants for Rangers I've had opportunity to compare and
contrast a whole heap of stuff, to try all manner of fancy gadgets
and fancy setups.

(I warned you it was a manifesto)



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OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 25, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., canyonz <info@c...> wrote:
> > Ok, that was phrased wrong, sorry.
> > I use the standard "double rope" technique. I.E, both ropes go
> > straight through the descender, middle of the rope is either
around a
> > tree or through a sling around a tree etc. No one is belaying or
> > controlling the ropes, I just "free fall" (slowly) on the
descender.
> > I believe this is what most canyoners do. I can imagine beginners
on
> > commercial trips would be spoon feed instead of having to control
the
> > descent themselves.
> >
>
> Not on my trips, mate! I make them work and they like it, rather
than being
> treated like a sack of potatoes. Only when they ask for it do I
lower them...

I'd do it the same way as you!

I've seen the "crying sack of potatoes" in action, not a pretty sight!

> adjusting the rope so that both ends are on the side of the
belay/tree/sling
> means that if you have a 10 m abseil and a 60 metre rope you have a
hell of a
> lot of rope waiting to drown and strangle you in the pool. Happened
to me
> when I started canyoning...freaky...

Very true.
I haven't had any trouble so far, but I've been aware of it.
I like to take at least 2 ropes of different lenghts to give me
options for different drops. Weight isn't much of an issue with me,
and having a spare rope makes me feel more secure also. I also pretty
much know what drops are in the canyon before I go so I can take the
best lenghts.

Dave :)
Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 25, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> > Very true.
> > That would probably be the same for all descenders that hang off
a
> > crab on a harness, be it an 8, pittstop, rack or whatever. But I
can
> > only see this happening when the descender is pressed against
> > something (the overhang?) and you twist your your body which
would
> > then put twisting force on the crab and descender, and the crab
would
> > probably be the first to go.
> > Am I reading this correctly or is there other ways it can happen?
> >
> > Dave :)
> >
> Not exactly sure what happened. I think the crab twisted in the
belay loop
> so the gate was facing up with the small curve pointing out and the
large
> curve against my gut. The 8 must have slid along possibly catching
up
> somehow and striping the screw, then it just went.

Yikes!
I feel a bit safer using my ultra simple Pitt-Stop now!

Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Descenders: A Personal Manifesto Flynn May 25, 2001
> 3. It works on 11mm or 9mm single or double.
> God help others with
> greater gravity assistance) I cannot come to a complete stop without tying
>"""" with me it still slips.

You should have no trouble stopping on double ropes. I way in at 85kg and
my mate a bit over 90kg, it's all in the wrist. On single robe jobs rigging
an 8 in with the level 3. should help stopping power.

There are ways and means to improve all devices. They're all safe if you
know their bugbears so it just depends on what you're comfortable and happy
with.
Flynn

Craig and Mandy's site
<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
<cflynn@...>
Re: Descender safety canyonz May 27, 2001
 
Very true.
I haven't had any trouble so far, but I've been aware of it.
I like to take at least 2 ropes of different lenghts to give me
options for different drops. Weight isn't much of an issue with me,
and having a spare rope makes me feel more secure also.
 
 
Mate, I'd love to go canyoning with you if weight is not an issue! I can think of a few kgs of wet 'issues' I could get you to carry for me! When do we go?

Julien

Re: Descender safety David L. Jones May 27, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., canyonz <info@c...> wrote:
>
>
> > Very true.
> > I haven't had any trouble so far, but I've been aware of it.
> > I like to take at least 2 ropes of different lenghts to give me
> > options for different drops. Weight isn't much of an issue with
me,
> > and having a spare rope makes me feel more secure also.
> >
> >
>
> Mate, I'd love to go canyoning with you if weight is not an issue!
I can
> think of a few kgs of wet 'issues' I could get you to carry for me!
When do we go?
>
> Julien

Going canyoning means I usually means I miss out on my Sat or Sun
morning gym workout, so I've gotta make myself work extra hard :)
Can't be going to the gym only six days a week, that would make me a
slacker! :->
Don't usually have enough room left in the pack for my protein drink
though :(
The things we sacrifice in persuit of canyoning *sigh*

Dave :)
Descender Safety rcwild@wildernessmail.net May 29, 2001
Just a quick point to add to Julien's thread regarding setting the
abseil rope length and tying it off at the top with a munter hitch
and mule knot --

I use this setup nearly 100% of the time. It provides what we refer
to as a "contingency anchor". If anyone gets stuck on the rope, I can
release the hitch in one second, then lower them to the ground in a
few seconds more. No need to rappel down to them or raise them back to
the top to render aid. As a matter of practice, the most experienced
person in the group should go down last.

Rich
Re: Fw: CO2? James Shadlow Jun 1, 2001

hey all

I agree completely with that, I just have no idea to word things like that myself, I'm only a poor school student =)

Shadlow

  Richard Neville <rneville@...> wrote:

Don't worry I'll be as gentle as I can!
The conventions for chemical equations are that a subscript number immediately after an element indicates the number of atoms of that element in that molecule.  A superscript number after a molecule indicates its electric charge.  A full size number before a molecule indicates how many of that molecule.  A superscript number before an element indicates an isotope.
So the only possible sorts of formula you could get are:
CO2 which shows a single molecule with 2 oxygens and one carbon.
CO32- which shows a particle containing one carbon and 3 oxygens where the whole particle has a negative 2 electric charge.
2CO2 which shows 2 molecules each of which contain one carbon and two oxygens
14CO2 which shows that the carbon in this molecule is the radioactive carbon-14 isotope (the 14 indicates the relative weight of the carbon atom
214CO2 which shows 2 molecules each of which contain one radioactive carbon-14 and two oxygens

So your H2S example:  could only have two interpretations:
H2S which is the normal formula for hydrogen sulfide
or H2S which would be one hydrogen and one sulfur-2 isotope (because sulfur has an atomic number of 16 it could never weigh less than 16, it's typically around 31)
The second possibility couldn't exist.

In most situations people aren't referring to isotopes/weights so they assume people will know that the number after an element is how many AND not the isotope number for the next element.
If there is a space between e.g. H2 S  then technically they refer to two separate molecules e.g a hydrogen molecule with two hydrogen atoms and a sulfur atom

If this hasn't helped, sorry.  Let me know I'll try to explain it better!

Cheers, Min

L&C Brown wrote:

Thanks JamesI can see  already that you are higher up the academic scale than I, but I think you missed my point. Let me give you another example, if I were to write Hydrogen Sulphide as H2S I don't think I have the same formula as H2S.  <---  (another cut & paste). Surely there must be another way to abbreviate it so as to avoid confusion, apart from buying a scientific keyboard or cut and pasting.Be gentle I'm out of my depth hereRegards Laurie



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Tigersnake rescue cflynn101@ozemail.com.au Jun 12, 2001
Rescue crews were called out early today after a party of 4 failed to
return from a trip down TigerSnake canyon.

The 4 were found completely lost but safe after spending a cold night
out. It seems a misunderstanding of the directions in the guide book
got them into trouble on the walk in.

Where the guide states something along the lines of "walk to the top
of the next hill and tend right down to the creek" They spotted the
exit track heading off to the right and thought they had to follow it.

From what I can gather they thought they were at the start of the
canyon when they were actually at the end, so they followed the creek
down (From what I can remember the creek is still quite canyonous down
past the usual exit point) and thinking they had done the canyon tried
to free climb out further down stream.
multi postings cflynn101@ozemail.com.au Jun 12, 2001
Sorry there guys I have no idea why that last message got posted 4 times
Gooches Crater on TV David Noble Jun 28, 2001
Hi Folks

Its been a bit quiet out there lately!

Are there any others out there doing winter canyoning?

Anyway:

This is part of a message I got from Keith Muir (Colong Foundation):


Dear Folks

Today on Saturday, this saturday 30th between 8am and 9am will cover the
Gooches Crater issue in a story about Henry Gold and his wilderness
photography. You will see (I hope) why people are worried about mining
damage to this area.

Gooches Crater scenery speaks volumes for itself and so I hope you will
watch the show.

Issues surrounding mining damage will be mentioned, although I have no
idea what the final story will look like.
--
--------------------------
David Noble
dnoble@...
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
Re: [OzCanyons] Gooches Crater on TV Lowan Turton Jun 28, 2001
I was out at Gooches Crater last Sunday and had a look at Billabong Canyon
as well. Its a fantastic spot for a winter walk.

Cheers,

Lowan Turton

On Thu, 28 Jun 2001, David Noble wrote:

> Hi Folks
>
> Its been a bit quiet out there lately!
>
> Are there any others out there doing winter canyoning?
>
> Anyway:
>
> This is part of a message I got from Keith Muir (Colong Foundation):
>
>
> Dear Folks
>
> Today on Saturday, this saturday 30th between 8am and 9am will cover the
> Gooches Crater issue in a story about Henry Gold and his wilderness
> photography. You will see (I hope) why people are worried about mining
> damage to this area.
>
> Gooches Crater scenery speaks volumes for itself and so I hope you will
> watch the show.
>
> Issues surrounding mining damage will be mentioned, although I have no
> idea what the final story will look like.
> --
> --------------------------
> David Noble
> dnoble@...
> http://www.ozemail.com.au/~dnoble/
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Re: Gooches Crater on TV David L. Jones Jun 30, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., David Noble <dnoble@o...> wrote:
> Hi Folks
>
> Its been a bit quiet out there lately!
> Are there any others out there doing winter canyoning?

Not me I'm afraid :(
The others I go with have all said "no way!"

Incidently, around what time does canyoning season start again?
I.E. around what time does it get warm enough for your typical non-
enthusiastic canyon tag-alongers stop complaining it's too cold? :->

I've only been doing it since last Nov.

Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Gooches Crater on TV Lee Etherington Jul 1, 2001
G'day all,
Ive done a few, just the usuals Juggler, Tigersnake Dalpura etc. nothing
terribly exciting.
The season typically starts around October long weekend. But its still
pretty cold, doesn't really warm up until dec/jan, although with all the
late rain last season the water never really warmed up. The weather has been
perfect for the last 6 weeks, it is actually really dry in the upper
mountains, many of the filmy ferns (that cover boulders) have dried up and
shriveled, Bowens Creek is very low etc. I haven't seen it this dry for a
fair while.
The Today show on Saturday was good, I urge everyone to send in letters as
outlined in previous posts to try to stop the sand mining company from
expanding. I have sent some personally and on behalf of my business. More
details are listed on the Blue Mountains Canyon info page, via the bookmarks
section of OzCanyons.
Have Fun! (& don't forget the neck warmer if you go Canyoning!)
Lee Etherington
Oz weather... canyonz Jul 1, 2001
Perfect weather for 6 weeks?! You lucky guys...

Julien
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Gooches Crater on TV Flynn Jul 1, 2001
Apparently the proposed extensions to the Clarence coal mining lease may
also effect the cliff stability around the Cosmic County area so for those
people who enjoy climbing as well it's twice as important to get letters
away.

(One part of the extensions heads under Clarence towards the old Blue mt
colliery, I'm not sure if this will effect Dargan Ck and the dam cliffs.)
The Flynns

Visit Craig and Mandy's site
For all our Canyoning, Rockclimbing and Mountain biking
Virtual tours and Photo gallerys

<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
Adventure companies Tom Brennan Jul 2, 2001
Has anyone had any experience with the Blue Mountains adventuring companies as
far as abseiling or canyoning courses goes? Although I've done about seven
canyons, I'd like to get a bit more experience abseiling and I'm interested in
seeing if anyone has any recommendations. The courses they offer seem pretty
similar on the surface. Some of the ones I've heard of include:
-Blue Mountains Adventure Company
-Australian School of Mountaineering
-High-n-Wild
-Ropewerx
-Dogface Adventures
-River Deep Mountain High
And I'm sure there's a few employees of those companies on this list so
independent views only thanks :) You can mention other companies if I've
missed a few.

cheers
tom
Grose Wilderness Karen Jul 2, 2001
Hi Ozcanyoner's,
The Grose Wilderness was declared last week but as yet I have not
seen a copy of the final boundary etc. If you are interested in
access or other issues I assume a copy should soon be available from
National Parks,

Bye
New file uploaded to OzCanyons OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com Jul 2, 2001
Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the OzCanyons
group.

File : /Base Jump Mpg
Uploaded by : localfocus@...
Description : Another Blue Mountains adrenalin sport. Walls Lookout, the most popular base jumping site in Australia

You can access this file at the URL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OzCanyons/files/Base%20Jump%20Mpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

localfocus@...
Re: [OzCanyons] Adventure companies Flynn Jul 2, 2001
Hi Tom

What you're probably after is an advanced abseil/ self rescue course
(basic, intermeadiate, and guided trips don't really teach you anything,
the guides do all the setting up and you just slide down the rope).

Advanced abseiling/ rescue is normally a 3 day course starting at about
$120/per day. It should teach you all about knotts, anchors(natural and
bolted), abseiling and belaying techniques and how to get yourself or your
friends out of trouble.

As for companies look under adventure in the yellow pages.

At present there is no formal accreditation (despite what some companies
will tell you) which means anyone can call themselves an abseil instructer.

Things to look for in a adventure company:

-Are they licenced by NPWS?
-how experinced are they?
-Do they offer a low guide to person ratio (1 instructor/ 2-4 clients for
advanced courses)
-Do they offer follow up courses? (Some companies will let you tag along on
the same course at a later date as a refresher, either for free or at
discounted prices)

While these courses are expensive they are a must for anyone who is into
canyoning and hasn't got an experienced group to teach them. (Even more
experienced people might learn a different approach to doing things)



At 01:04 PM 7/2/01 GMT, you wrote:
> Has anyone had any experience with the Blue Mountains adventuring
>companies as
> Although I've done about seven
> canyons, I'd like to get a bit more experience abseiling and I'm
>interested in
> The courses they offer seem pretty
> Some of the ones I've heard of include:
> -Blue Mountains Adventure Company
> -Australian School of Mountaineering
> -High-n-Wild
> -Ropewerx
> -Dogface Adventures
> -River Deep Mountain High
> And I'm sure there's a few employees of those companies on this list so
> You can mention other companies if I've
> missed a few.
>
> cheers
> tom
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
The Flynns

Visit Craig and Mandy's site
For all our Canyoning, Rockclimbing and Mountain biking
Virtual tours and Photo gallerys

<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
Re: Adventure companies Roberto.Schenone@lia.it Jul 3, 2001
I really don't think it is possible to learn (and to teach, of course) such a
large amount of techniques in just 3 days.

Ciao

Roberto


Message: 4
Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2001 16:58:18 +1000
From: Flynn <cflynn101@...>
Subject: Re: Adventure companies

Advanced abseiling/ rescue is normally a 3 day course starting at about
$120/per day. It should teach you all about knotts, anchors(natural and
bolted), abseiling and belaying techniques and how to get yourself or your
friends out of trouble.
RE: [OzCanyons] Adventure companies Leonard Metcalf Jul 4, 2001
Dear Tom,

There are a few companies around that offer Nationally Accredited Canyoning
Courses. There are a few that have been passed by VETAB (the national
accreditor). When searching ask if they are a RTO (Regestered Training
Organisation) and what courses do they have accredited.

One cheap option is to do the TAFE Certificate 3 & 4, that is currently
being run at Katoomba and Loftus Tafe. I know for certain that Canyoning can
be taken as your major at Katoomba. As far as courses go, it is very highly
regarded, and you get to meet a lot of very experienced people and complete
a number of other esential things, for example get a remote area first aid,
brush up on your navigation, learn vertical rescue techniques. It is very
cheap in comparison to any of the comercial courses. Mind you it is a huge
time commitment.

It is my belief that eventually you will have to have these qualifications
to guide an organised group in National Parks in the near future. And for
anyone who is already experienced the RPL (recognition of prior learning)
pathways are being developed as we speak, with the first people being
assessed for Cert 3, right now.

As well as doing a three day canyoning course, you may consider doing a
vertical and swift water rescue courses, a navigation course, and a remote
area first aid course. And get as much experience with other people as
possible. I still learn something from everyone I go out with, and have been
happy to teach anyone who wants to learn when they are out with me.

Regards Len.
Re: Adventure companies David L. Jones Jul 5, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Leonard Metcalf" <komungpty@o...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> There are a few companies around that offer Nationally Accredited
Canyoning
> Courses. There are a few that have been passed by VETAB (the
national
> accreditor). When searching ask if they are a RTO (Regestered
Training
> Organisation) and what courses do they have accredited.
>
> One cheap option is to do the TAFE Certificate 3 & 4, that is
currently
> being run at Katoomba and Loftus Tafe. I know for certain that
Canyoning can
> be taken as your major at Katoomba. As far as courses go, it is
very highly
> regarded, and you get to meet a lot of very experienced people and
complete
> a number of other esential things, for example get a remote area
first aid,
> brush up on your navigation, learn vertical rescue techniques. It
is very
> cheap in comparison to any of the comercial courses. Mind you it is
a huge
> time commitment.
>
> It is my belief that eventually you will have to have these
qualifications
> to guide an organised group in National Parks in the near future.
And for
> anyone who is already experienced the RPL (recognition of prior
learning)
> pathways are being developed as we speak, with the first people
being
> assessed for Cert 3, right now.
>
> As well as doing a three day canyoning course, you may consider
doing a
> vertical and swift water rescue courses, a navigation course, and a
remote
> area first aid course. And get as much experience with other people
as
> possible. I still learn something from everyone I go out with, and
have been
> happy to teach anyone who wants to learn when they are out with me.
>
> Regards Len.

Hi Len,
What Tafe course number and name is this?
I had a quick look on the web site and saw outdoor & recreation
courses with subject modules like introduction to canyoning, and
abseiling basics, but everything else seemed essentially useless.
Is there a course specifically for abseiling and rope/canyoning
skills?

Perhaps some of the more experienced guys on here would be kind
enough to spare some time teaching some of us lesser-experienced guys
on here a thing or two?? :)

There is a lot you can learn from courses, but I'd say you'd also
learn a heck of a lot more going out there with experienced people.

I know that every canyon I do I learn more and more, even when I'm
the most expereienced person leading the party. The different
situations force you to apply your skills and that is the best way to
learn.

Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Adventure companies John Shadlow Jul 6, 2001
Hi All

If you really want a cheap alternative .... with a little catch then join up
with a group like I am involved with (Royal Rangers) or Scouts. We both
offer courses in Abseiling, Canyoning and Caving to ORCA standard at Leader
and Instructor level. Our group is also working on obtaining VETAB
recognition. Or course you would have to use your new found knowledge in
training groups of teenagers.. then again the courses may not be that cheap
after all !!


PS I did River Caves a few weeks ago .. nice relatively dry canyon and a
pleasant winters walk... although I did get water in my wife's car getting
there ... not happy was she


Regards


John


-----Original Message-----
From: David L. Jones [mailto:tronnort@...]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:46 AM
To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Adventure companies

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Leonard Metcalf" <komungpty@o...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Tom,
>
> There are a few companies around that offer Nationally Accredited
Canyoning
> Courses. There are a few that have been passed by VETAB (the
national
> accreditor). When searching ask if they are a RTO (Regestered
Training
> Organisation) and what courses do they have accredited.
>
> One cheap option is to do the TAFE Certificate 3 & 4, that is
currently
> being run at Katoomba and Loftus Tafe. I know for certain that
Canyoning can
> be taken as your major at Katoomba. As far as courses go, it is
very highly
> regarded, and you get to meet a lot of very experienced people and
complete
> a number of other esential things, for example get a remote area
first aid,
> brush up on your navigation, learn vertical rescue techniques. It
is very
> cheap in comparison to any of the comercial courses. Mind you it is
a huge
> time commitment.
>
> It is my belief that eventually you will have to have these
qualifications
> to guide an organised group in National Parks in the near future.
And for
> anyone who is already experienced the RPL (recognition of prior
learning)
> pathways are being developed as we speak, with the first people
being
> assessed for Cert 3, right now.
>
> As well as doing a three day canyoning course, you may consider
doing a
> vertical and swift water rescue courses, a navigation course, and a
remote
> area first aid course. And get as much experience with other people
as
> possible. I still learn something from everyone I go out with, and
have been
> happy to teach anyone who wants to learn when they are out with me.
>
> Regards Len.

Hi Len,
What Tafe course number and name is this?
I had a quick look on the web site and saw outdoor & recreation
courses with subject modules like introduction to canyoning, and
abseiling basics, but everything else seemed essentially useless.
Is there a course specifically for abseiling and rope/canyoning
skills?

Perhaps some of the more experienced guys on here would be kind
enough to spare some time teaching some of us lesser-experienced guys
on here a thing or two?? :)

There is a lot you can learn from courses, but I'd say you'd also
learn a heck of a lot more going out there with experienced people.

I know that every canyon I do I learn more and more, even when I'm
the most expereienced person leading the party. The different
situations force you to apply your skills and that is the best way to
learn.

Dave :)


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Gooches Crater on TV david.hood@pocketmail.com.au Jul 8, 2001
Hello David
We have not exchanged email for sometime. Have you reviewed Jamison
ed.4 yet?
Yes we are sort of in operation over the winter. June LWE we went up
to the Forbes River for a... well cold trip (water is 9 deg.C).
Everything is just that little bit more difficult.
Regards
DH


--- In OzCanyons@y..., David Noble <dnoble@o...> wrote:
> Hi Folks
>
> Its been a bit quiet out there lately!
>
> Are there any others out there doing winter canyoning?
>
Topo maps david.hood@pocketmail.com.au Jul 8, 2001
For those of you who like to know where they are going, The Lands
Dept has recently released its topographic maps on CD.
There are are 7 in the series, called Topoview. Each CD is $165.
The maps are stored as raster images and can be viewed, magnified and
measured. They can be printed, or exported as Tiff files. The
resolution is less than a printed map, but satisfactory for most
purposes. They are 1st and 2nd ed. sheets (1970-1991).
For those with graphics programs, such as Photoshop, it is quite easy
to take the various exported bits of adjoining maps and put them
together to make one sheet, instead of photocopying/sticky taping.
Each CD contains a mixture of 25,50 and 100k sheets depending on what
is available in the area. Note these are not the AUSLIG/NATMAP 100k
sheets.
For the area Goulburn-Singleton, Orange-Sydney (Central Blue Mts,
Wollemi, Kanagra-Boyd, Bungonia) you need Volume 4.
Volume 3 covers the New-England (Barrington-Dorrigo etc)
Volume 1 covers the NE corner butting onto QLD (Border Ranges)
Volume 5 covers the SE and Snowies.
These cover are the 'canyoning' areas.
The other three are NW-western-SW areas.
DH
Re: [OzCanyons] Topo maps Tom Brennan Jul 8, 2001
I had a demo of Topoview down at the Sydney Map Shop about 6 weeks ago, but I
was rather disappointed. I personally think that the reduction in resolution
that was necessary to fit them on the 7 CDs was too extreme for them to be
really useful. Also the fact that a lot of the Sydney/Blue Mountains area is
already covered with 3rd edition maps means that you are not buying the latest
version.

Apparently there are going to be improvements, so at this stage I am hanging on
to my money. They are aiming to use a better compression algorithm that will
allow them to improve the resolution without taking up more space. They will
also update with 3rd edition when ready.

Certainly the manager himself (who was giving me the demo) recommended waiting.

cheers
tom

> For those of you who like to know where they are going, The Lands
> Dept has recently released its topographic maps on CD.
> There are are 7 in the series, called Topoview. Each CD is $165.
> The maps are stored as raster images and can be viewed, magnified and
> measured. They can be printed, or exported as Tiff files. The
> resolution is less than a printed map, but satisfactory for most
> purposes. They are 1st and 2nd ed. sheets (1970-1991).
> For those with graphics programs, such as Photoshop, it is quite easy
> to take the various exported bits of adjoining maps and put them
> together to make one sheet, instead of photocopying/sticky taping.
> Each CD contains a mixture of 25,50 and 100k sheets depending on what
> is available in the area. Note these are not the AUSLIG/NATMAP 100k
> sheets.
> For the area Goulburn-Singleton, Orange-Sydney (Central Blue Mts,
> Wollemi, Kanagra-Boyd, Bungonia) you need Volume 4.
> Volume 3 covers the New-England (Barrington-Dorrigo etc)
> Volume 1 covers the NE corner butting onto QLD (Border Ranges)
> Volume 5 covers the SE and Snowies.
> These cover are the 'canyoning' areas.
> The other three are NW-western-SW areas.
> DH
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Adventure companies Leonard Metcalf Jul 9, 2001
Dear David,

Not sure of the offical number of the tafe course. I suggest that to find
out more about it you ring Parrish Robbins in Outdoor Recreation at
Katoomba TAFE. The number is 02 4780 7807. There is probably some confusion
as they are changing from the old course to a new one and I am not sure if
the new one is currently listed. Parrish is a lovely person and would be
keen to talk to you about it. All of the students in the past have done
nothing but rave about it. Mind you the course is aimed at proffesionals in
a broard range of adventure activities, rather than recreational users.

There has also been discussion in this group about asking Rich Carlson to
run one of the American Canyoneering Courses here in the near future, with
even the possibility of running the second half in NZ. If we could get a
sizable group together, Rich was very keen and expressed an interest while
he was here.

I suppose the question should be asked: "How many people out there would be
interested in doing a short course on canyoning?"

I am personally happy to take people out with me when I canyon and teach
people, there is a catch though, I would want to take my camera, and enjoy
some time taking some photos while I am there, and then there is help
carrying all my gear. But the offer stands.

Regards Len
Re: Adventure companies David L. Jones Jul 9, 2001
> Not sure of the offical number of the tafe course. I suggest that
to find
> out more about it you ring Parrish Robbins in Outdoor Recreation at
> Katoomba TAFE. The number is 02 4780 7807. There is probably some
confusion
> as they are changing from the old course to a new one and I am not
sure if
> the new one is currently listed. Parrish is a lovely person and
would be
> keen to talk to you about it. All of the students in the past have
done
> nothing but rave about it. Mind you the course is aimed at
proffesionals in
> a broard range of adventure activities, rather than recreational
users.

Thanks for the info.
Guess it's too late for this semester though :(

> There has also been discussion in this group about asking Rich
Carlson to
> run one of the American Canyoneering Courses here in the near
future, with
> even the possibility of running the second half in NZ. If we could
get a
> sizable group together, Rich was very keen and expressed an
interest while
> he was here.
>
> I suppose the question should be asked: "How many people out there
would be
> interested in doing a short course on canyoning?"

*hand up*
I'd be very interested whether it's Tafe, Rich's American course, or
anyone on here just willing to share their experience.

> I am personally happy to take people out with me when I canyon and
teach
> people, there is a catch though, I would want to take my camera,
and enjoy
> some time taking some photos while I am there, and then there is
help
> carrying all my gear. But the offer stands.

Might just have to take you up on that next season :)
Maybe a few of us on here can organise a few group trips and we can
all share what we know?

I'm also happy to have people along on my trips and teach them what I
know, not that I'd consider myself all that experienced, but I might
have something to teach beginners.

Regards,
Dave :)
RE: [OzCanyons] Re: Adventure companies Flynn Jul 10, 2001
At 11:21 PM 7/9/01 +1000, you wrote:
> Dear David,

> There has also been discussion in this group about asking Rich Carlson to
> run one of the American Canyoneering Courses here in the near future, with
> even the possibility of running the second half in NZ. If we could get a
> sizable group together, Rich was very keen and expressed an interest while
> he was here.
>
>"How many people out there would be

Instead of a formal course wouldn't it be better just to have an occasional
get together to share ideas and demonstrate and practice different techniques?
The Flynns

Visit Craig and Mandy's site
For all our Canyoning, Rockclimbing and Mountain biking
Virtual tours and Photo gallerys

<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
Re: Adventure companies David L. Jones Jul 10, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> At 11:21 PM 7/9/01 +1000, you wrote:
> > Dear David,
>
> > There has also been discussion in this group about asking Rich
Carlson to
> > run one of the American Canyoneering Courses here in the near
future, with
> > even the possibility of running the second half in NZ. If we
could get a
> > sizable group together, Rich was very keen and expressed an
interest while
> > he was here.
> >
> >"How many people out there would be
>
> Instead of a formal course wouldn't it be better just to have an
occasional
> get together to share ideas and demonstrate and practice different
techniques?
> The Flynns

I'd be in for that.
We can even use the Calendar function of Yahoo groups to organise
events and show who's comming, where, when etc.

Dave :)
Helmets David L. Jones Jul 10, 2001
Equipment discussion time again! :->

I'm looking at getting myself a helmet for canyoning. Any
suggestions, thoughts, comments, good/bad reports, alternative ideas?

Looks like a good branded canyoning helmet can cost anywhere from
around $100 to $150, I think that's a bit too expensive. Preferably
looking for something around the $50 mark.

Thanks.
Dave :)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[OzCanyons] Helmets Mark.Willetts@defence.gov.au Jul 10, 2001
Try a whitewater kayaking helmet. I use mine for boats and canyons - a touch
heavier than a 'climbing' helmet and not as well ventilated (so keeps your head
warmer). You have to improvise the fitting of head torches, though.

Cheers, Mark W
Re: [OzCanyons] Helmets Flynn Jul 11, 2001
Hi Dave.

I use a petzl meteor<http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/frhelmets/helmetframe.html>
which I find it realy good as it's easy to adjust and comfy with a beanie
underneigh. Though at about $120 my mate gets justs much use (and
protection?) out of a cheap cycling helmet he picked up at a garage sale
for $5.




At 03:02 AM 7/11/01 -0000, you wrote:
> >
>
> I'm looking at getting myself a helmet for canyoning. Any
> suggestions, thoughts, comments, good/bad reports, alternative ideas?
>
> Looks like a good branded canyoning helmet can cost anywhere from
> around $100 to $150, I think that's a bit too expensive. Preferably
> looking for something around the $50 mark.
>
> Thanks.
> Dave :)
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> OzCanyons-unsubscribe@egroups.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
The Flynns

Visit Craig and Mandy's site
For all our Canyoning, Rockclimbing and Mountain biking
Virtual tours and Photo gallerys

<http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Gorge/2151>
Re: Helmets David L. Jones Jul 11, 2001
--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> Hi Dave.
>
> I use a petzl
meteor<http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/frhelmets/helmetframe.html>
> which I find it realy good as it's easy to adjust and comfy with a
beanie
> underneigh. Though at about $120 my mate gets justs much use (and
> protection?) out of a cheap cycling helmet he picked up at a garage
sale
> for $5.

That's what I'm thinking, you would get pretty much the same
protection from any sort of helmet.
I would like a Petzel or Edelrid, but not sure if I'd pay that sort
of money for it. Still, one has to look cool with the right gear in a
canyon right? :->

Dave :)
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Helmets Chris George Jul 11, 2001
I use an Edelrid Ultralight climbing helmet. It's great. It is adjustable
to wear a beanie or whatever underneath, very light, takes Petzl headlamps,
and provides excellent protection.

If you read the literature provided by Edelrid about how their climbing
helmets are designed and how they absorb the force of a blow or rockfall you
may reconsider the view that a $5 helmet or a cycling helmet provides the
same degree of protection.

They are quite a warm helmet even with nothing underneath. I think they
cost around the $80 mark approx.

cheers
Chris George


>From: "David L. Jones" <tronnort@...>
>Reply-To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
>To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Helmets
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:59:56 -0000
>
>--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> > Hi Dave.
> >
> > I use a petzl
>meteor<http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/frhelmets/helmetframe.html>
> > which I find it realy good as it's easy to adjust and comfy with a
>beanie
> > underneigh. Though at about $120 my mate gets justs much use (and
> > protection?) out of a cheap cycling helmet he picked up at a garage
>sale
> > for $5.
>
>That's what I'm thinking, you would get pretty much the same
>protection from any sort of helmet.
>I would like a Petzel or Edelrid, but not sure if I'd pay that sort
>of money for it. Still, one has to look cool with the right gear in a
>canyon right? :->
>
>Dave :)
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Helmets Chris Cook Jul 11, 2001
Sure, a cheap bike helmet may not provide the same level of protection as  $100+ climbing version, however if the low cost means that you will actually buy one & wear it... go for it.... Surely any helmet is better than none !
 
 
 
Chris
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Helmets

I use an Edelrid Ultralight climbing helmet.  It's great. It is adjustable
to wear a beanie or whatever underneath, very light, takes Petzl headlamps,
and provides excellent protection.

If you read the literature provided by Edelrid about how their climbing
helmets are designed and how they absorb the force of a blow or rockfall you
may reconsider the view that a $5 helmet or a cycling helmet provides the
same degree of protection.

They are quite a warm helmet even with nothing underneath.  I think they
cost around the $80 mark approx.

cheers
Chris George


>From: "David L. Jones" <tronnort@...>
>Reply-To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
>To: OzCanyons@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [OzCanyons] Re: Helmets
>Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 12:59:56 -0000
>
>--- In OzCanyons@y..., Flynn <cflynn101@o...> wrote:
> > Hi Dave.
> >
> > I use a petzl
>meteor<http://www.petzl.com/FRENG/frhelmets/helmetframe.html>
> > which I find it realy good as it's easy to adjust and comfy with a
>beanie
> > underneigh. Though at about $120 my mate gets justs much use (and
> > protection?) out of a cheap cycling helmet he picked up at a garage
>sale
> > for $5.
>
>That's what I'm thinking, you would get pretty much the same
>protection from any sort of helmet.
>I would like a Petzel or Edelrid, but not sure if I'd pay that sort
>of money for it. Still, one has to look cool with the right gear in a
>canyon right? :->
>
>Dave :)
>

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


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Re: Helmets John Chisholm Jul 11, 2001
I had these cheap helmet concerns myself at one time. I take out kids
for adventure training (Royal Rangers - Rock Sport Training) and when
we were setting up the program kids wore construction helmets, bike
helmets, beanies stuffed with newspaper (well no not the last one, but
you get the point).

The problem for us was that if anything hit the courts we couldn't
prove the safety of a bike helmet in a canyon or cave. After
considering that the question was asked how much protection they do
have.

You're right, it is better than nothing. But UIAA approved helmets are
designed for rockfall, to stay on your head in a fall and to withstand
minor scuffs and bangs. A bike helmet however is weakened considerably
by rough treatment such as you get in a hard canyon. They also don't
withstand the same penetrative forces from rockfall as they are
designed for a general (broad area) impact. In addition they don't
stay on as well in a sustained fall with multiple impacts (bearing in
mind the foam is designed to fail in the first impact, this is how it
absorbs the impact forces. And finally, the ventilation in a bike
helmet can let small rocks into contact with your tender noggin.

Probably a bike helmet will be Ok most of the time (better than
nothing) but I don't take the risk. I wear a Joe Brown and I bought my
wife an Edelred ultralight. In fact I think it's so important to wear
a helmet I just gave one to a mate who didn't have his own. Well, it
was an excuse to update mine to a new one.
For the kids I take out we got Salewa Brenta helmets from Southern
Cross at about $60 (pre GST pre Aussie Dollar falling over). Still
there the lowest price for a UIAA approved lid.

John Chisholm
Snr. Rock Sport Instructor
Royal Rangers Australia
jchis@...


--- In OzCanyons@y..., "Chris Cook" <turfa@y...> wrote:
> Sure, a cheap bike helmet may not provide the same level of
protection as $100+ climbing version, however if the low cost means
that you will actually buy one & wear it... go for it.... Surely any
helmet is better than none !
>
>
>
> Chris
Re: Helmets david.hood@pocketmail.com.au Jul 12, 2001
Helmets are like most things, "you pays your money, you makes ya
choice".
I prefer my Shoei RFV800 for comfort, to my Bell push bike hat, or
Salewa canyoning hat any day.
Vehicle helmets (i.e. bike) are, as you suggest, designed for a
different impact scenario, but one of the tests involves a point load
impactor so they can withstand some concentrated knocks. ALL helmets
though, can takesome minor knocking about, BUT should be replaced
after any serious bangs. I don't think I would be trusting a climbing
helmet after a rock fell on it for example.

I've often wondered whether wearing helmets, like most other safety
kit, tempts people to take more risks. I had a motorcycle helmet
exemption 10 years ago and rode totally differently to the way I do
wearing one. I only started wearing a canyon hat after medical advice
about not getting any more head knocks, and the worry that caused my
wife at the time. One result of this change was that I was not quite
so careful about tapping my head on overhanging rocks and the like. I
didn't feel them so there was no danger...see the logic, or anti-
logic maybe, behind this. This whole safety-psycology concept is
something to think about when you have people under your control on a
trip. Are we being molly-coddled too much these days?
D
cheap as chips scott hall Jul 13, 2001
srt has elderid ultralight helmets for $55 and thats
as cheap as they come. if you buy more than 1 you
should get them even cheaper.the ultralight is the
best option for canyoning


srt 9 nelson ave
padstow

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Re: cheap as chips David L. Jones Jul 13, 2001
Thanks Scott!
The Elderid is the one I had my eye on, and at that price I'll get
two :)

Thanks
Dave :)

--- In OzCanyons@y..., scott hall <djshall2000@y...> wrote:
> srt has elderid ultralight helmets for $55 and thats
> as cheap as they come. if you buy more than 1 you
> should get them even cheaper.the ultralight is the
> best option for canyoning
>
>
> srt 9 nelson ave
> padstow
>
>
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more!
Re: cheap as chips David L. Jones Jul 14, 2001
Alpsport have the Edelrid Ultralight for $82 ticket price but can do
it for $75, so $55 sounds like a real bargain!

Dave :)

--- In OzCanyons@y..., "David L. Jones" <tronnort@y...> wrote:
> Thanks Scott!
> The Elderid is the one I had my eye on, and at that price I'll get
> two :)
>
> Thanks
> Dave :)
>
> --- In OzCanyons@y..., scott hall <djshall2000@y...> wrote:
> > srt has elderid ultralight helmets for $55 and thats
> > as cheap as they come. if you buy more than 1 you
> > should get them even cheaper.the ultralight is the
> > best option for canyoning
> >
> >
> > srt 9 nelson ave
> > padstow
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> _______
> > http://messenger.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Messenger
> > - Voice chat, mail alerts, stock quotes and favourite news and
lots
> more!
Edelrid Ultralight prices David L. Jones Jul 15, 2001
Turns out that SRT (On-rope) have the Edelrid Ultralight for $64, not
$55, that must have been ex-GST or something. Still cheap though.

Dave :)
Volleys Warren Keen Aug 22, 2001
How do you tell the difference between the old Dunlop volleys and the
new....What else do people recommend?

waz
Re: Volleys david.hood@pocketmail.com.au Aug 22, 2001
The new volleys have coarser weave canvas uppers, the sole material
is less elastic and they have 'made in china' on them. The old have
the opposite phys. props. and were made here. Needless to say the new
cheaper ones wear out faster by ripping along the sole join, because
the fabric is not as strong, and the soles chew up quickly.
Try instead, divers booties, or yachtman's sneekers which have razor
cut rubber soles and high quality uppers. Both items can be obtained
from a ships chandlers or boating supply shop such as 'Bias" for
between $30-$40.
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[OzCanyons] Volleys Mark.Willetts@defence.gov.au Aug 22, 2001
My old volleys have holes in them and my new ones don't :).

I got good results from Teva 'Wet climbers' but they tore at the fold
behind the toes on the outside of the foot more quickly than volleys do.

cheers, Mark W
Re: [OzCanyons] Re: Volleys Flynn Aug 23, 2001
A bit of a trick we stumbled across with the old volleys. A small hole cut above the big toe works wonders for pumping sand out as you walk. No more stopping to empty your shoe.

At 03:33 AM 8/23/01 +0000, you wrote:
The new volleys have coarser weave canvas uppers, the sole material
is less elastic and they have 'made in china' on them. The old have
the opposite phys. props. and were made here. Needless to say the new
cheaper ones wear out faster by ripping along the sole join, because
the fabric is not as strong, and the soles chew up quickly.
Try instead, divers booties, or yachtman's sneekers which have razor
cut rubber soles and high quality uppers. Both items can be obtained
from a ships chandlers or boating supply shop such as 'Bias" for
between $30-$40.





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Virtual tours and Photo gallerys

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Re: Volleys Adam Bramwell Aug 23, 2001
A tragic tale of two volleys...

Pair one: Old style. lasted for 3 years, lost them.
Pair two: New style. didn't last the 1 1/2 hr walk up to Balor Hut in
the Warrumbungles

I've adopted a heirarchy of use for outdoors shoes:

1/ Urban use
2/ Canyoning use
3/ Caving use
4/ Dog use

Adam




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MY PANTS CAN PHOTOSYNTHESIZE
AND STORE CARBON
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New NPWS regulations for NSW John Chisholm Sep 5, 2001
OK canyoners,
It is time to get political. The New NPWS regs came out on Friday and
from a canyoners point of view they are going to make your life hell.

The parts of the legislation which I believe will be of most concern
are:
It will be illegal in a national park to carry equipment for
Abseiling, Caving, Rock Climbing (also base jumping, hang gliding,
bunjy jumping etc).
This means if you are canyoning without a permit, NPWS won't have to
prove you were actually canyoning. If you've got the gear you cop the
fine (up to $3000 I believe). This also means you can't carry an
emergency rope on a bushwalk. It could theoretically mean you could be
fined for having a karabiner on your keyring.
Under the old NPWS guidelines dangerous activities (including
Abseiling, Caving, Rock Climbing) were prohibited although NPWS could
grant permission. In actual fact that part of the law was not
enforced, perhaps the same will be true of this law. If however it is
not going to be enforced why have it on the books?
It is probably a precursor to paying for permits, but the legislation
goes way too far.
It is also now an offense to camp anywhere within a national park,
other than at an approved camping ground.

There is more in this legislation along this vein.
So what do we do about it? Write to your State MP but not just your
local MP, the way to override the NSW labour government involves
lobbying liberal/national MPs and also the cross bench MPs.
You'll find that the Outdoor Recreation MPs probably hate this act
more than we do. Also the Christian Democrats (Fred and Elaine Nile)
are probable allies. I have already received notification from a CDP
staffer that they are "looking at the act" and that they "share your
concerns"

So if you want any chance of getting this bill defeated in the upper
house try to send something off in the next 7-10 days. Actually, do it
now before you forget.

Cheers,
John Chisholm
Re: [OzCanyons] New NPWS regulations for NSW Tom Brennan Sep 5, 2001
John

Where can we find information on this? I can't see anything on the NSW
Parliament web site or NPWS web site for that matter.

cheers
tom